Alignment discussion
09-24-2012, 05:41 AM
#21
Ok.
I wouldn't change too much alignment wise at once. I think 'correcting' the front and rear toe alone might be enough. You really want the car to be balanced to get the most out of it.
What i am thinking may help alot is is if you could put your 225/45 tyres on the front and put a 255/40 on the rear thats going to help over all. More rubber more grip
Caster - again it goes back to what you prefer. The steering feel on the S is very light and masked by the electric PAS so I have no quarms in going low castor. Currently mine is about 4'50 which is very non standard, it still self centres fine but the weightyness is gone. It feels a little weird when you first turn almost like its going to wipe out but it makes it very fast and light. It gives me that fast hands feel
I drove a S2000 that had castor set towards 7deg and it feels nice as well, completely different to my car. The steering was comparatively heavy and you could feel it 'loading up' a little more when into a corner. Conversely you could feel a little more 'lighting up' on the steering when mid corner bumps interfered. What's nice as well with high castor is the self turning effect during oversteer, mine is almost completely gone but in a high castor car the steering wheel spins fast to the stop of its own accord when you get the back end out.
Im still experimenting with this and will be going back to the other end of the scale some time soon. Must importantly the castor must be set equal otherwise you will get nasty effects whist braking, it kind of pulls around unless its spot on.
I wouldn't change too much alignment wise at once. I think 'correcting' the front and rear toe alone might be enough. You really want the car to be balanced to get the most out of it.
What i am thinking may help alot is is if you could put your 225/45 tyres on the front and put a 255/40 on the rear thats going to help over all. More rubber more grip
Caster - again it goes back to what you prefer. The steering feel on the S is very light and masked by the electric PAS so I have no quarms in going low castor. Currently mine is about 4'50 which is very non standard, it still self centres fine but the weightyness is gone. It feels a little weird when you first turn almost like its going to wipe out but it makes it very fast and light. It gives me that fast hands feel
I drove a S2000 that had castor set towards 7deg and it feels nice as well, completely different to my car. The steering was comparatively heavy and you could feel it 'loading up' a little more when into a corner. Conversely you could feel a little more 'lighting up' on the steering when mid corner bumps interfered. What's nice as well with high castor is the self turning effect during oversteer, mine is almost completely gone but in a high castor car the steering wheel spins fast to the stop of its own accord when you get the back end out.
Im still experimenting with this and will be going back to the other end of the scale some time soon. Must importantly the castor must be set equal otherwise you will get nasty effects whist braking, it kind of pulls around unless its spot on.
09-24-2012, 12:38 PM
#22
Registered User
Your driving style and alignment needs have always sounded similar to mine Si.
To that end, I'd recommend the following:
Rear toe: 15 minutes - more stability over bumps and a slightly more planted rear end.
Rear camber: 2 degs
Caster: 5 degs 30 mins
Front toe: 0
Front camber: 1 degs
To that end, I'd recommend the following:
Rear toe: 15 minutes - more stability over bumps and a slightly more planted rear end.
Rear camber: 2 degs
Caster: 5 degs 30 mins
Front toe: 0
Front camber: 1 degs
09-30-2012, 03:07 AM
#24
Registered User
There's no need to go crazy with camber unless you're doing a lot of hard cornering...it adds little value day to day. Toe, in conjunction with caster will affect normal driving, and the 'feel' of the wheel.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
09-30-2012, 04:20 AM
#26
Registered User
Ahhh...that makes more sense...
Yes, the steering will be a touch lighter...that's one thing that is difficult to say 'yes, you will like it'. If you know you like it heavier, go for it...it won't affect how the rest of the settings perform.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Yes, the steering will be a touch lighter...that's one thing that is difficult to say 'yes, you will like it'. If you know you like it heavier, go for it...it won't affect how the rest of the settings perform.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
09-30-2012, 04:57 AM
#27
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Im of the same school of thought. After lots and lots and lots of testing I definitely prefer less rear camber and more front (currently -2'20f/-1'55r). It makes the on the limit balance a lot better for me.
Typically more toe out on the front will make your turn in great but at the expense of the rear end. Id say the toe out is definetely accelerating your front tyre wear. I wouldn't expect understeer with your setup at all, in fact with 225 rear tyre id expect loads of oversteer! It must be the high -ve rear camber thats keeping it in check. On/beyond the limit it must be snappy though?
What coilovers and ARBs are fitted? Which tyre types and pressures are you using?? What is the usage track/road %age, how 'eager' are you ?
Typically more toe out on the front will make your turn in great but at the expense of the rear end. Id say the toe out is definetely accelerating your front tyre wear. I wouldn't expect understeer with your setup at all, in fact with 225 rear tyre id expect loads of oversteer! It must be the high -ve rear camber thats keeping it in check. On/beyond the limit it must be snappy though?
What coilovers and ARBs are fitted? Which tyre types and pressures are you using?? What is the usage track/road %age, how 'eager' are you ?
I quoted Raz' post above I find that intriguing, that goes against all current knowledge of setting up the S2000 doesn't it, or am I reading the settings wrong?
My current camber settings are
FRONT
camber -1.04
castor 6*09
Toe 0.00
Total front toe 0.00
REAR
camber -2*11'
Toe 0*24'
Total rear toe 0*48'
These would be the type of settings CG might use and I am guessing most GEO places too, to switch that around would be unusual I think? I would be interested in Raz' view (and Ron's come to that) on why he prefers more camber at the front than rear?
I realise this kind of post is subjective, and very much how people drive or want to drive their car, but I am always looking at new ways to set the car up so find this fascinating, thanks for any info.
09-30-2012, 05:19 AM
#28
UK Moderator
My experiences from having a wide variety of castor settings (I've had as little as 5[sup]o[/sup] 30' and as much as 6[sup]o[/sup] 30'):
Less castor will not simply make the steering "lighter".
It will make initial turn in lighter and the steering will weight up significantly as you apply load. Also, there will be a lot less self centring. It feels like you have to turn the wheel quite a lot for a certain amount of turn. I found this made the car quite difficult to place when pressing on (though I am a weakling which is a factor in that).
Lots of caster will make the steering heavier all over but with less weighting up (as there is more to start with). You also get more "camber" when you are turning as the wheels lean over more - most of the track guys in the US run with caster maxxed out for this reason. Having lots of camber on the front as suggested by some will have a similar effect.
The car will feel a lot more pointy with very fast turn in. I also found this made the car quite difficult to place as turn in was a bit too fast for my abilities.
In the end I have settled for 6[sup]o[/sup] 05' which suits me.
It's also worth remembering that the setup is a bit of a balancing act. Lots of "grip" at the front will effectively make the rear "looser" and vice versa. My car is setup to be a little understeery as that makes sense for me and my driving abilities and the fact that my car is a road car.
Less castor will not simply make the steering "lighter".
It will make initial turn in lighter and the steering will weight up significantly as you apply load. Also, there will be a lot less self centring. It feels like you have to turn the wheel quite a lot for a certain amount of turn. I found this made the car quite difficult to place when pressing on (though I am a weakling which is a factor in that).
Lots of caster will make the steering heavier all over but with less weighting up (as there is more to start with). You also get more "camber" when you are turning as the wheels lean over more - most of the track guys in the US run with caster maxxed out for this reason. Having lots of camber on the front as suggested by some will have a similar effect.
The car will feel a lot more pointy with very fast turn in. I also found this made the car quite difficult to place as turn in was a bit too fast for my abilities.
In the end I have settled for 6[sup]o[/sup] 05' which suits me.
It's also worth remembering that the setup is a bit of a balancing act. Lots of "grip" at the front will effectively make the rear "looser" and vice versa. My car is setup to be a little understeery as that makes sense for me and my driving abilities and the fact that my car is a road car.
09-30-2012, 05:27 AM
#29
Registered User
More camber at the front - The idea is that you have a flatter rear tyre to allow better acceleration traction.
This again would bring in the reason you have stagger.
For road, I'd be looking at 2º front camber and a little toe out.
Yes, high caster does increase steering related camber but also mutes your turn in.
This again would bring in the reason you have stagger.
For road, I'd be looking at 2º front camber and a little toe out.
Yes, high caster does increase steering related camber but also mutes your turn in.
09-30-2012, 06:09 AM
#30
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More camber at the front - The idea is that you have a flatter rear tyre to allow better acceleration traction.
This again would bring in the reason you have stagger.
For road, I'd be looking at 2º front camber and a little toe out.
Yes, high caster does increase steering related camber but also mutes your turn in.
This again would bring in the reason you have stagger.
For road, I'd be looking at 2º front camber and a little toe out.
Yes, high caster does increase steering related camber but also mutes your turn in.
