Jenson
10-01-2009, 11:11 AM
#141
Originally Posted by m1bjr,Oct 1 2009, 06:43 PM
But under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982?
Does the law not allow for reasonable compensation in the case of a failed engine?
This may be the issue here, with HUK who supply the car to the franchised sales outlets, are not perceived to be offering enough?
Does the law not allow for reasonable compensation in the case of a failed engine?
This may be the issue here, with HUK who supply the car to the franchised sales outlets, are not perceived to be offering enough?
Nor is there anything to force the dealer to pay out for consequential losses as the terms and conditions of sale you would have signed up to by buying the car would have stated.
In the same way that if a microwave fails halfway through heating up your Rustlers quarter pounder there is no obligation for Currys to pay for your ruined burger.
10-01-2009, 12:12 PM
#142
Banned
so say if Trish was taking Ian to the flicks
and the car broke down and they couldn't go
Honda or the dealer woudn't have to stump up £15 for the cinema tickets and £20 for the meal in McDonalds afterwards?
that's not nice
and the car broke down and they couldn't go
Honda or the dealer woudn't have to stump up £15 for the cinema tickets and £20 for the meal in McDonalds afterwards?
that's not nice
10-01-2009, 12:23 PM
#144
Banned
so we've established:
1) any claim is against the supplying dealer, not Honda UK (after about sixteen attempts)
2) there is no realistic prospect of a claim for consequential losses (if I've understood correctly)
when are we going to hear some juicy details?
1) any claim is against the supplying dealer, not Honda UK (after about sixteen attempts)
2) there is no realistic prospect of a claim for consequential losses (if I've understood correctly)
when are we going to hear some juicy details?
10-01-2009, 12:31 PM
#145
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Originally Posted by gaddafi,Oct 1 2009, 09:23 PM
2) there is no realistic prospect of a claim for consequential losses (if I've understood correctly)
There's a very old case called Hadley -v- Baxendale that establishes that a party in breach of contract is liable for all losses within reasonable contemplation of the parties when they entered into the contract.
So, if you had, for instance, told the dealer that you would be using the car to commute to work and that it was your only vehicle, you could justifiably claim the cost of hiring a replacement car to use until it was driveable again.
On the other hand, if you had some specific purpose in mind in buying the car that was unknown to the dealer and he had no reasonable basis to believe you had in mind, he's not liable for that loss.
10-01-2009, 12:51 PM
#146
Banned
Originally Posted by Lurking Lawyer,Oct 1 2009, 08:31 PM
Depends what you mean by "consequential".
There's a very old case called Hadley -v- Baxendale that establishes that a party in breach of contract is liable for all losses within reasonable contemplation of the parties when they entered into the contract.
So, if you had, for instance, told the dealer that you would be using the car to commute to work and that it was your only vehicle, you could justifiably claim the cost of hiring a replacement car to use until it was driveable again.
On the other hand, if you had some specific purpose in mind in buying the car that was unknown to the dealer and he had no reasonable basis to believe you had in mind, he's not liable for that loss.
There's a very old case called Hadley -v- Baxendale that establishes that a party in breach of contract is liable for all losses within reasonable contemplation of the parties when they entered into the contract.
So, if you had, for instance, told the dealer that you would be using the car to commute to work and that it was your only vehicle, you could justifiably claim the cost of hiring a replacement car to use until it was driveable again.
On the other hand, if you had some specific purpose in mind in buying the car that was unknown to the dealer and he had no reasonable basis to believe you had in mind, he's not liable for that loss.
given that 'most' private car purchases are intended to be used for commuting and various sdp purposes
doesn't that suggest that consequential losses would apply in a commensurately high number of cases?
is the other conclusion from your post, that only the most unusual uses to which a car might be put, would assist in helping a dealer to avoid a claim for consequential loss?
10-01-2009, 12:57 PM
#147
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This is a joint post by Bokkie & Gaspode.
Much of today has been spent on the phone talking with Honda UK, Honda Bristol or each other. The following is the information which can now be disclosed:
12 Aug
Gas telephoned Crown Honda to book Snowy in for investigation (there was a knocking noise coming from under the bonnet, origin unknown).
21 Aug
Mechanics at Crown Honda hear Snowy's noise. They state they're not competent to work on the engine of the S and propose Gas waits for Jorge to return from holiday in 2 weeks. Appointment made and Snowy is driven home.
2 Sep
Jorge thinks the problem is the hydraulic tensioner & orders the part
9 Sep
Hydraulic tensioner fitted - no change.
10 Sep
Valve clearance checked - no change.
Jorge investigates further and concludes that something in the engine has gone - most likely a bearing. Snowy is parked up at his advice. Mileage on the clock is circa 8,000 miles. A short engine needs to be ordered, delivery estimated as 5 weeks. Gas rangs Honda UK Customer Services to query lengthy delivery time as unacceptable.
19 Sep
Bokkie takes Jenson for a drive. Changing gear 3rd to 4th at 8,000rpm a bang is heard & Jenson is driven home. Mileage on the clock is circa 10,000 miles. Engine still functions smoothly.
20 Sep
Bokkie gets a friend to listen to Jenson & both agree it sounds like exhaust. Bokkie speaks to Gaxxy to arrange dropping Jenson into Bristol for a service & to get the exhaust checked.
21 Sep
Bokkie drives to Swindon, the noise gets worse & Jenson's pedals vibrate horrendously. Mechanic confirms it's not exhaust but likely transmission or engine related. Honda Assist is called & they send out the AA's marvellous Bob who arranges transport to Bristol Honda (Bokkie's chosen dealer). Enterprise are to deliver a D/E class replacement car to Bokkie's work before 4:30pm. Instead she is picked up at 6pm, taken to the Enterprise depot & presented with the infamous Micra - with only fuel fumes & 23 miles left in the tank.
22 Sep
Bristol Honda ring to confirm Jenson is broken...there is swarf in the sump. No evidence of excessive scarring - the educated guess is a component within the engine has broken up & the short engine needs to be replaced. Order placed with HUK - all to be done under warranty - expected delivery by end of following week (2 Oct).
23 Sep
Gas calls Crown Honda for ETA on component as no reply from HUK on expediting delivery.
Bokkie asks Honda Assist for Honda UK's customer service number so she can complain about the hire car & gets given the AA's complaints number instead!
24 Sep
Gas is told that the parts are indeed available. Post goes up that Jorge is leaving. Crown investigate - and call back. Gas discusses with Crown Honda as to next steps (as by their mechanics' own admission on 21st Aug) they do not feel competent to work on the S engine and Jorge will not be available to do the work. Both agree that another dealer should do the work.
Bokkie gets lucky - the Enterprise car has to be returned today - Bristol Honda come through - they deliver the Bristol Bullet (Civic 2.2l i CTDi) to work, complete with fuel!
25 Sep
Gas calls Bristol Honda to ask if they will be willing to undertake the work. Gaxxy steps up to the plate.
Jenson's full engine is removed awaiting delivery of new short engine.
Bristol Honda have received well over 20 calls from concerned S owners!
28 Sep
Snowy is moved to Bristol.
29 Sep
Snowy's engine is out of the car awaiting delivery of the short engine.
Jenson's new short engine has been attached to the rest of the engine.
1 Oct
Jenson's engine has been re-installed & the marvellous Kevin (one of Bristol Honda's two S men) confirms it sounds "lovely"
Alas, Jenson reveals a further flaw...premature wear on the gear linkage - parts duly ordered - Jenson can't come home just yet!
Arrival of Snowy's short engine is imminent.
Bokkie & Gas ring Honda UK Customer Services & talk to the lovely Jo - HUK Customer Services have no knowledge of Jenson's plight. And do not realise Snowy's diagnosis is likely related. They're unaware of the presence of a possible 3rd S at the Honda Institute.
Jo talks to the Honda Technicians Team who confirm both short engines are to be sent to Japan for inspection and further analysis. HUK Head Technician states they don't yet know what caused the 2 cars to fail. ETA for any feedback is 2½ weeks.
Conclusions:
Honda Institute Technicians have been directly involved (albeit behind the scenes) in investigating the problems on these cars.
However Honda Institute technicians did not make Honda UK (Customer Relations) aware of the above problems.
Consequently there would seem to be no Honda customer service strategy whereby technicians at Honda Institute furnish information to Honda UK Customer Services to mitigate a potential PR incident or manage customer expectations. The primary focus is on the mechanical failure and not the customer.
The process of getting any warranty work done does not seem to involve customer service.
Engine Numbers:
Jenson - F20C21080571
Snowy - F20C21090153
If your engine number falls between the 2, there is a possibility that you may join our sorry ranks. We sincerely hope this is not the case.
However we must stress that there is no point in taking your car to a Honda dealer to be checked as the exact cause of Jenson & Snowy's failures has yet to be confirmed by HUK. Alas, you will have to wait for the fault to occur on your vehicle & then take your car to your local dealer, hopefully they will be as efficient and effective as Bristol Honda.
Older S
If you own an older S - i.e. pre 08 engine number, there is no indication that your car is affected. (Subject of course to Honda Japan's findings.)
Much of today has been spent on the phone talking with Honda UK, Honda Bristol or each other. The following is the information which can now be disclosed:
12 Aug
Gas telephoned Crown Honda to book Snowy in for investigation (there was a knocking noise coming from under the bonnet, origin unknown).
21 Aug
Mechanics at Crown Honda hear Snowy's noise. They state they're not competent to work on the engine of the S and propose Gas waits for Jorge to return from holiday in 2 weeks. Appointment made and Snowy is driven home.
2 Sep
Jorge thinks the problem is the hydraulic tensioner & orders the part
9 Sep
Hydraulic tensioner fitted - no change.
10 Sep
Valve clearance checked - no change.
Jorge investigates further and concludes that something in the engine has gone - most likely a bearing. Snowy is parked up at his advice. Mileage on the clock is circa 8,000 miles. A short engine needs to be ordered, delivery estimated as 5 weeks. Gas rangs Honda UK Customer Services to query lengthy delivery time as unacceptable.
19 Sep
Bokkie takes Jenson for a drive. Changing gear 3rd to 4th at 8,000rpm a bang is heard & Jenson is driven home. Mileage on the clock is circa 10,000 miles. Engine still functions smoothly.
20 Sep
Bokkie gets a friend to listen to Jenson & both agree it sounds like exhaust. Bokkie speaks to Gaxxy to arrange dropping Jenson into Bristol for a service & to get the exhaust checked.
21 Sep
Bokkie drives to Swindon, the noise gets worse & Jenson's pedals vibrate horrendously. Mechanic confirms it's not exhaust but likely transmission or engine related. Honda Assist is called & they send out the AA's marvellous Bob who arranges transport to Bristol Honda (Bokkie's chosen dealer). Enterprise are to deliver a D/E class replacement car to Bokkie's work before 4:30pm. Instead she is picked up at 6pm, taken to the Enterprise depot & presented with the infamous Micra - with only fuel fumes & 23 miles left in the tank.
22 Sep
Bristol Honda ring to confirm Jenson is broken...there is swarf in the sump. No evidence of excessive scarring - the educated guess is a component within the engine has broken up & the short engine needs to be replaced. Order placed with HUK - all to be done under warranty - expected delivery by end of following week (2 Oct).
23 Sep
Gas calls Crown Honda for ETA on component as no reply from HUK on expediting delivery.
Bokkie asks Honda Assist for Honda UK's customer service number so she can complain about the hire car & gets given the AA's complaints number instead!
24 Sep
Gas is told that the parts are indeed available. Post goes up that Jorge is leaving. Crown investigate - and call back. Gas discusses with Crown Honda as to next steps (as by their mechanics' own admission on 21st Aug) they do not feel competent to work on the S engine and Jorge will not be available to do the work. Both agree that another dealer should do the work.
Bokkie gets lucky - the Enterprise car has to be returned today - Bristol Honda come through - they deliver the Bristol Bullet (Civic 2.2l i CTDi) to work, complete with fuel!
25 Sep
Gas calls Bristol Honda to ask if they will be willing to undertake the work. Gaxxy steps up to the plate.
Jenson's full engine is removed awaiting delivery of new short engine.
Bristol Honda have received well over 20 calls from concerned S owners!
28 Sep
Snowy is moved to Bristol.
29 Sep
Snowy's engine is out of the car awaiting delivery of the short engine.
Jenson's new short engine has been attached to the rest of the engine.
1 Oct
Jenson's engine has been re-installed & the marvellous Kevin (one of Bristol Honda's two S men) confirms it sounds "lovely"
Alas, Jenson reveals a further flaw...premature wear on the gear linkage - parts duly ordered - Jenson can't come home just yet!
Arrival of Snowy's short engine is imminent.
Bokkie & Gas ring Honda UK Customer Services & talk to the lovely Jo - HUK Customer Services have no knowledge of Jenson's plight. And do not realise Snowy's diagnosis is likely related. They're unaware of the presence of a possible 3rd S at the Honda Institute.
Jo talks to the Honda Technicians Team who confirm both short engines are to be sent to Japan for inspection and further analysis. HUK Head Technician states they don't yet know what caused the 2 cars to fail. ETA for any feedback is 2½ weeks.
Conclusions:
Honda Institute Technicians have been directly involved (albeit behind the scenes) in investigating the problems on these cars.
However Honda Institute technicians did not make Honda UK (Customer Relations) aware of the above problems.
Consequently there would seem to be no Honda customer service strategy whereby technicians at Honda Institute furnish information to Honda UK Customer Services to mitigate a potential PR incident or manage customer expectations. The primary focus is on the mechanical failure and not the customer.
The process of getting any warranty work done does not seem to involve customer service.
Engine Numbers:
Jenson - F20C21080571
Snowy - F20C21090153
If your engine number falls between the 2, there is a possibility that you may join our sorry ranks. We sincerely hope this is not the case.
However we must stress that there is no point in taking your car to a Honda dealer to be checked as the exact cause of Jenson & Snowy's failures has yet to be confirmed by HUK. Alas, you will have to wait for the fault to occur on your vehicle & then take your car to your local dealer, hopefully they will be as efficient and effective as Bristol Honda.
Older S
If you own an older S - i.e. pre 08 engine number, there is no indication that your car is affected. (Subject of course to Honda Japan's findings.)
10-01-2009, 01:00 PM
#148
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Hire car costs are reasonably foreseeable. I wouldn't see any great problem in persuading a court to uphold such a claim, as long as they were reasonable.
If you had bought the car to take part in (for instance) something like the Gumball Rally and had spent thousands of pounds in readiness on hotels, ferries etc etc, that would not be reasonably foreseeable unless you had expressly made the dealer aware of it and so losses associated wouldn't be recoverable.
It's a question of fact in every case but in most instances it's going to be fairly clear whether something "consequential" is reasonably foreseeable.
If you had bought the car to take part in (for instance) something like the Gumball Rally and had spent thousands of pounds in readiness on hotels, ferries etc etc, that would not be reasonably foreseeable unless you had expressly made the dealer aware of it and so losses associated wouldn't be recoverable.
It's a question of fact in every case but in most instances it's going to be fairly clear whether something "consequential" is reasonably foreseeable.
10-01-2009, 01:11 PM
#149
Banned
Originally Posted by Lurking Lawyer,Oct 1 2009, 09:00 PM
Hire car costs are reasonably foreseeable. I wouldn't see any great problem in persuading a court to uphold such a claim, as long as they were reasonable.
If you had bought the car to take part in (for instance) something like the Gumball Rally and had spent thousands of pounds in readiness on hotels, ferries etc etc, that would not be reasonably foreseeable unless you had expressly made the dealer aware of it and so losses associated wouldn't be recoverable.
It's a question of fact in every case but in most instances it's going to be fairly clear whether something "consequential" is reasonably foreseeable.
If you had bought the car to take part in (for instance) something like the Gumball Rally and had spent thousands of pounds in readiness on hotels, ferries etc etc, that would not be reasonably foreseeable unless you had expressly made the dealer aware of it and so losses associated wouldn't be recoverable.
It's a question of fact in every case but in most instances it's going to be fairly clear whether something "consequential" is reasonably foreseeable.
makes sense
10-01-2009, 01:12 PM
#150
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Originally Posted by Bokkie,Oct 1 2009, 10:57 PM
Engine Numbers:
Jenson - F20C21080571
Snowy - F20C21090153
If your engine number falls between the 2, there is a possibility that you may join our sorry ranks. We sincerely hope this is not the case.
Jenson - F20C21080571
Snowy - F20C21090153
If your engine number falls between the 2, there is a possibility that you may join our sorry ranks. We sincerely hope this is not the case.
My engine number is above Jenson's by less than 300
F20C210808XX
