Weight versus performance 245 vs 255
04-01-2013, 11:32 AM
#11
Given the same compound. Tire width on our car (which does make good power out of the box contrary to how dull your senses have become) will far outperform a narrower tire combination, when you consider cornering speed and braking improvement. Pick a good wheel and tire and there doesn’t have to be that much weight added. My stagger is still on par with stock and look how much wider they are? The rear wheel/tire package weighs 48lb total! Also when you throw in a track worthy alignment -3 camber, in a strait line you only have about 75% of the width making contact with the road, so rolling resistance isnt the argument once considered. its all about balancing grip and weight. And I’m here to tell you the balance is in favor of grip. We are not driving a 175hp car that weighs nothing. It is a substantially weighted and powered car for what it is. Any power or weight savings bolt ons we like to do to this thing only further pushes the balance into the favor of wider tires.
And FYI - 255 is faster on a 10” rim, not a 9”. It "feels" more precise too. It will help mask some of the short comings of an inferior constructed sidewall, and is actually the max properly mated size for that tire width. Take a wide but soft sidewall tire such as an RS3 for example.
I never put all my credence in what everyone else is doing. Only if it makes sense and works best after I get a chance to play trial and error over the years.
And FYI - 255 is faster on a 10” rim, not a 9”. It "feels" more precise too. It will help mask some of the short comings of an inferior constructed sidewall, and is actually the max properly mated size for that tire width. Take a wide but soft sidewall tire such as an RS3 for example.
I never put all my credence in what everyone else is doing. Only if it makes sense and works best after I get a chance to play trial and error over the years.
04-01-2013, 12:54 PM
#12
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Given the same compound. Tire width on our car (which does make good power out of the box contrary to how dull your senses have become) will far outperform a narrower tire combination, when you consider cornering speed and braking improvement. Pick a good wheel and tire and there doesn’t have to be that much weight added. My stagger is still on par with stock and look how much wider they are? The rear wheel/tire package weighs 48lb total! Also when you throw in a track worthy alignment -3 camber, in a strait line you only have about 75% of the width making contact with the road, so rolling resistance isnt the argument once considered. its all about balancing grip and weight. And I’m here to tell you the balance is in favor of grip. We are not driving a 175hp car that weighs nothing. It is a substantially weighted and powered car for what it is. Any power or weight savings bolt ons we like to do to this thing only further pushes the balance into the favor of wider tires.
And FYI - 255 is faster on a 10” rim, not a 9”. It "feels" more precise too. It will help mask some of the short comings of an inferior constructed sidewall, and is actually the max properly mated size for that tire width. Take a wide but soft sidewall tire such as an RS3 for example.
I never put all my credence in what everyone else is doing. Only if it makes sense and works best after I get a chance to play trial and error over the years.
And FYI - 255 is faster on a 10” rim, not a 9”. It "feels" more precise too. It will help mask some of the short comings of an inferior constructed sidewall, and is actually the max properly mated size for that tire width. Take a wide but soft sidewall tire such as an RS3 for example.
I never put all my credence in what everyone else is doing. Only if it makes sense and works best after I get a chance to play trial and error over the years.
I mostly run tracks like Sebring, Road Atlanta, etc, but I have seen an instance where someone with 255's destroyed me at Roebling Road due to the long fast sweepers and my understeer (trying to correct with a non-staggered setup).
I'm leaning towards the 255 setup due to the comments, and the ability of the tires to absorb the heat better. Great comments so far!
04-01-2013, 07:01 PM
#13
Run the 255 on the 10 for best bet - I didn't mention it because you didn't in your initial post. It is 1 second faster roughly on a 1'30" track here. Proven countless times on both S2000 and Miata.
Anyone arguing that a 245 on a 8 is going to provide a significant difference in acceleration relative to a 255 on a 9 is dreaming/talking out of their ass. Go ahead and run both cars, tell me how quantifiably significant the difference is.
As for GT motoring - you can run the slow combination if you want. Not everyone needs to prove that the 255 on a 10 or 255 on a 9 is better than a 245 on an 8" rim. There have been many instances where it has been proved, and if that is not enough for you, I am not here to convince you otherwise.
S2000junky is about the only person here not spewing false information.
Anyone arguing that a 245 on a 8 is going to provide a significant difference in acceleration relative to a 255 on a 9 is dreaming/talking out of their ass. Go ahead and run both cars, tell me how quantifiably significant the difference is.
As for GT motoring - you can run the slow combination if you want. Not everyone needs to prove that the 255 on a 10 or 255 on a 9 is better than a 245 on an 8" rim. There have been many instances where it has been proved, and if that is not enough for you, I am not here to convince you otherwise.
S2000junky is about the only person here not spewing false information.
04-01-2013, 08:29 PM
#14
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Please show me where I am "spewing" false information.
I noticed a difference in lap times in our miata switching from the same setup on two different wheel weights. 12 lbs vs. 15, tires being the same. Now, there were a few variables being out of our control (track temps being the main one). I wasn't saying the 8 with a 245 setup was going to be faster, just simply saying that I was open to the idea that it could be. To say that a 255 on a 9" is absolutely faster in every case short of a drag race is somewhat misleading. Blanket statements with regards to setup and lap times is a no-no in my opinion, but that's not worth much to you know, is it? Every driver is different and one setup for one driver is not going to be the fastest for another driver. I generally won't give advice on here with someone saying "i have all these parts, tell me how to set up the car go to fast". That's just ridiculous to me.
For reference, I usually run a 255 on a 9" wheel, not because it's the fastest but because it fits all of our cars and customers cars rather easily. If I want to go fast, I put on some A6s.
To the OP, I honestly dont think you can go wrong with either set up. Just pick one and start using it. Seat time is the most important thing when it comes to lowering lap times. When you're first starting you can run one setup one weekend, then run another the next weekend and be faster. The seat time difference makes more of a difference at that point than the setup does, but you try to rationalize and say "man, those mods did a lot" instead of "man, i've improved a lot as a driver" since we all know we are the best drivers ever when we first start out on track.
Run what you have, or what you can afford and just get experience. Don't get too in depth at the setup when your driving isn't up to par with the car yet. My TT car, on Coilovers, with a Wing and Camber joints and a test pipe and run some pretty fast lap times...that's what 50 days on track a year will get you.
And for clarity, yes, I understand that most people are faster with a stretched tire. Thats how it's always been with my miata, and to some extent with the s2000. But a 10" wheel takes a little work to fit and we can't share with customers.
I noticed a difference in lap times in our miata switching from the same setup on two different wheel weights. 12 lbs vs. 15, tires being the same. Now, there were a few variables being out of our control (track temps being the main one). I wasn't saying the 8 with a 245 setup was going to be faster, just simply saying that I was open to the idea that it could be. To say that a 255 on a 9" is absolutely faster in every case short of a drag race is somewhat misleading. Blanket statements with regards to setup and lap times is a no-no in my opinion, but that's not worth much to you know, is it? Every driver is different and one setup for one driver is not going to be the fastest for another driver. I generally won't give advice on here with someone saying "i have all these parts, tell me how to set up the car go to fast". That's just ridiculous to me.
For reference, I usually run a 255 on a 9" wheel, not because it's the fastest but because it fits all of our cars and customers cars rather easily. If I want to go fast, I put on some A6s.
To the OP, I honestly dont think you can go wrong with either set up. Just pick one and start using it. Seat time is the most important thing when it comes to lowering lap times. When you're first starting you can run one setup one weekend, then run another the next weekend and be faster. The seat time difference makes more of a difference at that point than the setup does, but you try to rationalize and say "man, those mods did a lot" instead of "man, i've improved a lot as a driver" since we all know we are the best drivers ever when we first start out on track.
Run what you have, or what you can afford and just get experience. Don't get too in depth at the setup when your driving isn't up to par with the car yet. My TT car, on Coilovers, with a Wing and Camber joints and a test pipe and run some pretty fast lap times...that's what 50 days on track a year will get you.
And for clarity, yes, I understand that most people are faster with a stretched tire. Thats how it's always been with my miata, and to some extent with the s2000. But a 10" wheel takes a little work to fit and we can't share with customers.
04-02-2013, 09:11 AM
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The seat time difference makes more of a difference at that point than the setup does, but you try to rationalize and say "man, those mods did a lot" instead of "man, i've improved a lot as a driver" since we all know we are the best drivers ever when we first start out on track.
Don't get too in depth at the setup when your driving isn't up to par with the car yet.
Don't get too in depth at the setup when your driving isn't up to par with the car yet.
04-02-2013, 09:42 AM
#16
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I currently have 2 sets of wheels: both are 17x9 but I run 255/40 on one set and 245/40 on the other. I dont believe there is any difference in time between the two, at least on the tracks that I run (Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca, Sonoma Raceway) I will say that the 245 on the 9 feels much better and communicates more due to being ever so slightly stretched. The problem is is that they overheat a little sooner than the 255s. This is why so many are having success with a 255 on a 17x9.5 or 17x10. the tire is more responsive but there is more overall grip and heat tolerance compared to the 245.
04-02-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Z3papa' timestamp='1364842403' post='22443612
I'm kind of surprised a third option of a 245 on a 17x9 wheel is not considered. I'd bet the width difference on a stretched tire would be less and there would be a little gearing benefits, although I tend to fall into the camp of the more the merrier.
04-02-2013, 01:41 PM
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So that answers my 245 vs 255 overheating question.
So many have mentioned that a 255 is more responsive on a 9.5 or 10" wide rim, anyone have any favorites in 17" size, that fits with your standard fender roll and doesn't hit brake ducting? (obviously you can go crazy here, let's assume stock suspension)
So many have mentioned that a 255 is more responsive on a 9.5 or 10" wide rim, anyone have any favorites in 17" size, that fits with your standard fender roll and doesn't hit brake ducting? (obviously you can go crazy here, let's assume stock suspension)
04-02-2013, 03:30 PM
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do you have stock suspension now?
do you plan on changing that?
how much fender roll are you willing to do? 9.5-10" rims does not mean standard fender roll to most.
How much do you want to spend? anything larger than 17x9 at this point for the S2000 is over a $2400 investment for rims only. Some options might be available soon for under that for 17x10s. Keep your eye on the Racing and Tire forums
do you plan on changing that?
how much fender roll are you willing to do? 9.5-10" rims does not mean standard fender roll to most.
How much do you want to spend? anything larger than 17x9 at this point for the S2000 is over a $2400 investment for rims only. Some options might be available soon for under that for 17x10s. Keep your eye on the Racing and Tire forums
04-02-2013, 05:58 PM
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do you have stock suspension now?
do you plan on changing that?
how much fender roll are you willing to do? 9.5-10" rims does not mean standard fender roll to most.
How much do you want to spend? anything larger than 17x9 at this point for the S2000 is over a $2400 investment for rims only. Some options might be available soon for under that for 17x10s. Keep your eye on the Racing and Tire forums
do you plan on changing that?
how much fender roll are you willing to do? 9.5-10" rims does not mean standard fender roll to most.
How much do you want to spend? anything larger than 17x9 at this point for the S2000 is over a $2400 investment for rims only. Some options might be available soon for under that for 17x10s. Keep your eye on the Racing and Tire forums
I consider a standard fender roll to cut the liners near the edge and roll until the inside lip is flush, but I would actually like to roll (at least the fronts) to where the fender has a curve all the way to the edge (instead of the vertical edge on the side of the fender). I think it looks better.
Yes I asked for wheel suggestions because I hadn't found anything like it in my price range. So based on the above price quote I think I may choose something budget for now (i.e. TR3's), I have other upgrades that are probably more pressing at the moment.