I have the oem everything on my car, which suspension setup are you running? I had to do the brake stab at corner entry too, but for the long sweeping curves, what am I gonna do, stab the brakes for the whole turn? That was where it understeered. Corner exit had no push, harder on the throttle the better eh .

 

The dragon I would equate more to autocross. How does one not push a lot, while driving the dragon? Especially since my car is a 2007. I testing it out all week, every car pushed into the turns at some point. Now you're going to say, driver error, ok yea I know. That's why I changed the way I drove, still pushed a bit. I want to try 225/245 tire combo next year with the eibach sway bars front and rear.
[/quote]

Thats ap2s for ya everyone complained about the snap over steer on the ap1... and they dampened the steering ratio from 13.8 to 14.9 and changed the shock setup to make it want to understeer.

I know swaybars are a good start to changing your suspension setup, and I know how everyone raves about stock suspension setup being sooo good (because it is, and its free with the car) but maybe you should consider coilovers...? Kwv3? With coilovers you can stiffen and soften the shocks at will by simply pulling over on the road. Swaybars are a much cheaper fix compared to $2000+ suspension though.

Also I know that with double wishbone suspension setup camber has a curve correlated with the compression of the front shock. I'm no suspension expert, but s2000 front shocks dont have resivoirs. Just a guess but due to the hard braking and elevation changes, the shock body might not have been able to cope. When a shock has a resivoir like the stock rears, it allows the shock to react to sudden changes with such a force- that high spring rates found in other setups are not needed. That being said, I could be totally wrong, because the s2000 front shock is way bigger it could have a similar oil resivoir built in? I know my kwv3 have them external on all 4 corners. Its most probable that honda didnt put one on the front because it wasn't "needed," but then again s2000s were made to be enjoyable to drive hard and to cruise.

Oh and fluky... being that you drove my car faster than I did on the dragon... did it push? It wasn't setup right at the dragon, the ride height was raked, which is why the front was rubbing a lot. I fixed it now (lowered the rear 6 full turns) and it seems to handle WAY better.
[/quote]
No more rubbing yay!

Your car felt quite a bit different, it felt very very neutral. There wasnt any understeer problems that come to mind. It was like it would be a slight understeer, very slight, if any. Where my car, it was obviously understeering at times. I am also guessing that the stiffer springs helps with that, the car doesnt go as far forward on the front wheels, or as far back on the rear wheels in terms of weight transferring. Your car also didnt have any crazy oversteer that everyone talks about .

Next year Im going to have the oem suspension still, because I dont want to change anything before I go on a long trip like that. I want to stay with the tried, tested and true. After though, Ill be looking at picking up Motons, or JRZ's with my personal spring rate of choice .



ps. Driving your car was definitely one of the highlights of my trip, the suspension was wonderful. I now want suspension before I buy all my straight line mods.

 

The dragon I would equate more to autocross. How does one not push a lot, while driving the dragon? Especially since my car is a 2007. I testing it out all week, every car pushed into the turns at some point. Now you're going to say, driver error, ok yea I know. That's why I changed the way I drove, still pushed a bit. I want to try 225/245 tire combo next year with the eibach sway bars front and rear.
[/quote]

Thats ap2s for ya everyone complained about the snap over steer on the ap1... and they dampened the steering ratio from 13.8 to 14.9 and changed the shock setup to make it want to understeer.

I know swaybars are a good start to changing your suspension setup, and I know how everyone raves about stock suspension setup being sooo good (because it is, and its free with the car) but maybe you should consider coilovers...? Kwv3? With coilovers you can stiffen and soften the shocks at will by simply pulling over on the road. Swaybars are a much cheaper fix compared to $2000+ suspension though.

Also I know that with double wishbone suspension setup camber has a curve correlated with the compression of the front shock. I'm no suspension expert, but s2000 front shocks dont have resivoirs. Just a guess but due to the hard braking and elevation changes, the shock body might not have been able to cope. When a shock has a resivoir like the stock rears, it allows the shock to react to sudden changes with such a force- that high spring rates found in other setups are not needed. That being said, I could be totally wrong, because the s2000 front shock is way bigger it could have a similar oil resivoir built in? I know my kwv3 have them external on all 4 corners. Its most probable that honda didnt put one on the front because it wasn't "needed," but then again s2000s were made to be enjoyable to drive hard and to cruise.

Oh and fluky... being that you drove my car faster than I did on the dragon... did it push? It wasn't setup right at the dragon, the ride height was raked, which is why the front was rubbing a lot. I fixed it now (lowered the rear 6 full turns) and it seems to handle WAY better.
[/quote]
No more rubbing yay!

Your car felt quite a bit different, it felt very very neutral. There wasnt any understeer problems that come to mind. It was like it would be a slight understeer, very slight, if any. Where my car, it was obviously understeering at times. I am also guessing that the stiffer springs helps with that, the car doesnt go as far forward on the front wheels, or as far back on the rear wheels in terms of weight transferring. Your car also didnt have any crazy oversteer that everyone talks about .

Next year Im going to have the oem suspension still, because I dont want to change anything before I go on a long trip like that. I want to stay with the tried, tested and true. After though, Ill be looking at picking up Motons, or JRZ's with my personal spring rate of choice .



ps. Driving your car was definitely one of the highlights of my trip, the suspension was wonderful. I now want suspension before I buy all my straight line mods.
[/quote]

Shit motons.... ok balla! the suspension was 1/3 of the way stiff all around. The problem is I raised the rear before I rolled my fenders, and got it aligned without lowering it. After I got back from the dragon i was like f@#k the $80 I paid for the alignment... Lemme drop the damn car

My car will oversteer before it understeers- unless i make it purposely understeer, but with 255 rear tires you have to push it hard or really make a mistake to make either of those happen. I LOVE the 225/255 setup for the street.

Do you have lowering springs fluker? The stock springs are really comfy/streety. Plus... Billman has em

 

Top be honest we don't have many sweeping corners around my parts, it's a lot of rutted bumpy old backroads mostly. The only time I've ever experienced push with the car is a full lock U-turn and a 180° 50mph turn with a fairly drastic uphill slope but taking 3psi out of the front tires cured the issue, I think it was 28psi Cold. As far as suspension I run OEM Struts with 6" Springs(roughly 2" Drop from factory), I'm still experimenting with spring rate variations front/rear but with the rear sway bay off the car the insane snap over steer is completely eliminated. Point blank, the OEM struts are Boss...the set I'm using right now are from my AP1 and they have a combined 160k on them and they're not even close to blown, they're extremely stiff while off the car and they return just like they did brand new. It's worth mentioning that I run "extreme" camber angles and fitment but the car is still set up to take the corners full tilt, hence the rear sway bar removal. I'm currently running 215's up front and 225's out back and it's not nearly as bad as you'd think. Previously these wheels had 225/255's of the same brand tire on my old AP1 and the difference is negligible. The car is still extremely manageable at the limit through corners, thanks in part to being an AP2.

Front Toe, 0°
Front Camber, -2.5°
Front Caster, 6.2° Even both sides

Rear Toe, 0.18° Total toe
Rear Camber -5.92°(I know...I know...)

For reference:


The only problem I experience is that the roll center is out of its normal location so at times you can feel the rear end almost roll onto the camber and hold traction, it's really the strangest feeling in the world but thanks to removing the rear sway bar the rear stays planted and pulls through. The rear tires do in fact completely touch the pavement on flat ground at 31psi though it's close. Front's have no issue with wear and will last around 30k. I can usually manage 12-15k out of the rears if I don't get excited and remember to flip them in time.

 

Well I have experienced this same tire wear on the inside fronts. The rears are wearing equally across the tire surface, but less than front. About 9k km on the set. Conservative alignment in which I will try to find the printout and a picture of the front tire wear pattern. What sucks is that the front tires otherwise would be good for more mileage if it wasnt for the wear. Trying to figure out what is causing this, too much of some angle? tire pressure? nature of the beast? Always figured with conservative camber up front the tire should wear evenly or if anything the outside edge.

ap1 on tein springs, zero toe in front, oem size star specs