Unsigned NIPs.. High Court Decision.
08-02-2003, 07:33 AM
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08-02-2003, 09:23 AM
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So if I read this correctly you need to be (from past thingies) a crown minister - and from this one a 'celebrity' - whatever that is - to benefit from the obfuscation of UK law? Sh@t why do I pay taxes?
Or am I completely senile?
Or am I completely senile?
08-02-2003, 02:55 PM
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If hypothetically you don't sign the form, would it be an automatic road to court if you refused to sign it after they sent it back to you.
If the camera were to be a forward facing camera and clearly identified the driver would it be a waste of time trying this trick ?
If the camera were to be a forward facing camera and clearly identified the driver would it be a waste of time trying this trick ?
08-03-2003, 07:10 AM
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Guys, I've deleted my posts on this, as Judge Owen's ruling isn't as clear cut as was first thought.
In Yorke's case, Judge Owen ruled the form inadmissable as it was not filled in by Yorke but by his agent and therefore was not admissable. He was not asked to adjudicate on the admissibility of unsigned forms generally and hasn't done so., so there's still going to be a test case needed before we're any wiser on it!
In Yorke's case, Judge Owen ruled the form inadmissable as it was not filled in by Yorke but by his agent and therefore was not admissable. He was not asked to adjudicate on the admissibility of unsigned forms generally and hasn't done so., so there's still going to be a test case needed before we're any wiser on it!
typical !
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08-04-2003, 01:12 AM
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As I see it, the law is clear - the NIP is only admissible as evidence if it is signed, however there is no legal requirement to sign it. The police wouldn't be able to use an unsigned confession or witness report in court, why should any other document be different?
Yorke's case was high profile, I think the judge realised that while there was no way he could convict under law, doubt could still be cast on the result by throwing the issue of the agent into the pot.
The interesting case is the Mawdesley case, there is no other evidence to say he was driving and he didn't sign the NIP - the judge has ordered the case go back to the Magistrate's court - the outcome of that case will determine if the law is sufficient to convict someone on unsigned evidence.
I don't see how the law can be made to cover this, but if it doesn't, then for a while at least, speed cameras will be of no use to the government as a revenue collecting tool - wonder if road deaths will escalate wildly as a result.......?
Yorke's case was high profile, I think the judge realised that while there was no way he could convict under law, doubt could still be cast on the result by throwing the issue of the agent into the pot.
The interesting case is the Mawdesley case, there is no other evidence to say he was driving and he didn't sign the NIP - the judge has ordered the case go back to the Magistrate's court - the outcome of that case will determine if the law is sufficient to convict someone on unsigned evidence.
I don't see how the law can be made to cover this, but if it doesn't, then for a while at least, speed cameras will be of no use to the government as a revenue collecting tool - wonder if road deaths will escalate wildly as a result.......?
08-04-2003, 01:50 AM
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There are still grey areas Mark unfortunately. Whilst Judge Owen hasn't said that unsigned notices are inadmissable 'across the board'. The other issue was whether or not the notice even though it's unsigned, is an admissable admission bearing in mind that you're possibly being asked to incriminate yourself by filling it out, but haven't had the benefit of being cautioned,as you would be in a confrontation with a copper, this being a postal exchange.
Judge Owen has decided in his wisdom that in these circumstances, the admission would be admissable, and an exception under the Police And Criminal Evidence Act to a caution being required. That just provides a little more leverage for those trying to find a 'workaround' for the problem with the huge amounts of dosh involved.
I agree with you though, the unsigned form would be inadmissable under the criteria applied to other documents. It will be interesting to see what the magistrates do in the Mawdesly case now!
Judge Owen has decided in his wisdom that in these circumstances, the admission would be admissable, and an exception under the Police And Criminal Evidence Act to a caution being required. That just provides a little more leverage for those trying to find a 'workaround' for the problem with the huge amounts of dosh involved.
I agree with you though, the unsigned form would be inadmissable under the criteria applied to other documents. It will be interesting to see what the magistrates do in the Mawdesly case now!
08-04-2003, 02:10 AM
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Me = Still confused
I am fairly certain that I am going to receive a NIP soon from an evil Truvelo camera... slight case of 87 in a 70 arrgghhhh.
If you were me, what would you do:
Sign or no sign?
I am fairly certain that I am going to receive a NIP soon from an evil Truvelo camera... slight case of 87 in a 70 arrgghhhh.
If you were me, what would you do:
Sign or no sign?