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11-15-2004, 01:31 AM
#31
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My first thought is that if someone asks me, when looking for a less mainstream car where they should go, or is 'such and such a car' worth looking at I send them out on the net to find an enthusiasts site.
Generally speaking, enthusiasts cars will have been maintained better than cars owned by people who don't really think twice about it and for whom it's an A to B car and nothing more.
I agree to a point about many people's cars having being driven hard, but I dare say also that those same people will have made sure the oil was topped up, the recalls were done and that the dealers treated their car with a bit of care. So what if the car was driven hard every now and again? If it's cared for in the meantime, then I would say it mitigates somewhat.
So do we have a duty of care towards anyone who comes here thinking that a car advertised will be a cherished example? I'd say to an extent yes, since it protects the reputation of the site. But only to the extent that a sticky at the top of the section entitled 'What to look out for when buying an S2000', including stuff about recalls, points to watch with the car and also with the owner (do they know about the oil etc.) with a disclaimer that anyone can roll up and sell a car, but if you're here because you want one that's been cared for by a member, then check the sellers profile and posting history before you assume anything.
Caveat Emptor indeed, but we can help the emptor be a little more clued up before they go buying, can't we?
Generally speaking, enthusiasts cars will have been maintained better than cars owned by people who don't really think twice about it and for whom it's an A to B car and nothing more.
I agree to a point about many people's cars having being driven hard, but I dare say also that those same people will have made sure the oil was topped up, the recalls were done and that the dealers treated their car with a bit of care. So what if the car was driven hard every now and again? If it's cared for in the meantime, then I would say it mitigates somewhat.
So do we have a duty of care towards anyone who comes here thinking that a car advertised will be a cherished example? I'd say to an extent yes, since it protects the reputation of the site. But only to the extent that a sticky at the top of the section entitled 'What to look out for when buying an S2000', including stuff about recalls, points to watch with the car and also with the owner (do they know about the oil etc.) with a disclaimer that anyone can roll up and sell a car, but if you're here because you want one that's been cared for by a member, then check the sellers profile and posting history before you assume anything.
Caveat Emptor indeed, but we can help the emptor be a little more clued up before they go buying, can't we?
11-15-2004, 01:42 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by neil_s2k,Nov 13 2004, 03:39 PM
How about a car buyers guide post at the top of the for sale forum? Use it to remind people to look at the age and number of posts, search for previous seller's posts, pointing them to the tech faq etc etc
Now who's gonna be kind enough to write one?
neil?
11-15-2004, 02:11 AM
#33
i don't see where all this anti non-members selling s2000 related stuff comes from. surely the more people that know about this site the better for the s2000 community. it also means that stuff for sale comes up in here first rather than on ebay etc. i benefited from a non member advertising muz mats on this site and everyone can benefit from non members adds too, as long as they are s2000 related. for someone to make the effort to find the site, it generally indicates they have more than a passing interest in the s2000 (though i appreciate there are some exceptions to that rule)
11-15-2004, 02:51 AM
#34
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I think this is probably about the 5th time I've seen this discussion come up.
Sorry but the argument about not buying from a non-member is bs. Has no-one ever bought from Autotrader - did you know the person selling????? Plus if you're buying you have more choice of cars available. Or are members trying to create a monopoly of prices on here
Personally I think non-members should not be allowed to buy anything from the site. After all we don't know who they are or if they can be trusted to look after a car we might sell them - and handed over 15k for.
:stirstirstir:
Sorry but the argument about not buying from a non-member is bs. Has no-one ever bought from Autotrader - did you know the person selling????? Plus if you're buying you have more choice of cars available. Or are members trying to create a monopoly of prices on here
Personally I think non-members should not be allowed to buy anything from the site. After all we don't know who they are or if they can be trusted to look after a car we might sell them - and handed over 15k for.
:stirstirstir:
11-15-2004, 03:23 AM
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It's not the same old 'should non members be allowed to sell/buy' argument though......
Read the thread before weighing in with the same tired old arguments. otherwise this thread will go the same way as the previous 5 on the subject of the Buy and Sell area.....
It's about selling cars, not Muz Mats, not whether non-members should be able to buy or sell tat - we're talking about S2000s and the fact that they can be advertised here by all and sundry.
It's about the perception that a car advertised here may be better looked after by an enthusiast than Joe Bloggs when in fact, Joe Bloggs can come here and advertise too.
If you want a premium for a car which you have looked after, then you will sell it through a more specialist medium than Autotrader. This site could be one such medium, but it is in danger of becoming just another place to buy from. There is a cachet attached to this site, provided by the members' knowledge and enthusiasm - surely if you were selling your car and could get a bit more because of that, you'd be in favour of it? Or are your socialist principles so strong you'd rather see a free-for-all?
Hell, what do I care, mines a company car.
Read the thread before weighing in with the same tired old arguments. otherwise this thread will go the same way as the previous 5 on the subject of the Buy and Sell area.....
It's about selling cars, not Muz Mats, not whether non-members should be able to buy or sell tat - we're talking about S2000s and the fact that they can be advertised here by all and sundry.
It's about the perception that a car advertised here may be better looked after by an enthusiast than Joe Bloggs when in fact, Joe Bloggs can come here and advertise too.
If you want a premium for a car which you have looked after, then you will sell it through a more specialist medium than Autotrader. This site could be one such medium, but it is in danger of becoming just another place to buy from. There is a cachet attached to this site, provided by the members' knowledge and enthusiasm - surely if you were selling your car and could get a bit more because of that, you'd be in favour of it? Or are your socialist principles so strong you'd rather see a free-for-all?
Hell, what do I care, mines a company car.
11-15-2004, 03:37 AM
#37
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Not a socialist I'm afraid Mark, I obviously perceive things differently as I wouldn't assume some random bod hadn't looked after their car. Just as I wouldn't assume someone on here had (thinking about all the hoolying threads).
From the cars I see advertised many of the members cars have more mods etc . Personally that's not what I'm after when buying a car and I'm sure I'm not the only one. And of course I'd want to get as much for my car as poss but I also wouldn't want to rip anyone off especially the people I've met (virtually and in person) on here (and I prefer more choice if buying.)
Boo hiss company car driver (jealous really 
).
From the cars I see advertised many of the members cars have more mods etc . Personally that's not what I'm after when buying a car and I'm sure I'm not the only one. And of course I'd want to get as much for my car as poss but I also wouldn't want to rip anyone off especially the people I've met (virtually and in person) on here (and I prefer more choice if buying.)
Boo hiss company car driver
(jealous really ).
11-15-2004, 03:39 AM
#38
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I agree with the majority of what MarkB says. The difficulty with this however is that someone has to police it (the mods are the obvious candidates, I guess) and to do that they need hard and fast rules to enforce. If they don't, we're going to get embroiled in the same old arguments about the way in which any discretion is exercised whenever ads are removed.
It's pretty clear-cut when you have a 0 day newly-registered member who is advertising their car - I think most people would look at the poster's s2ki age as a matter of course and make their own assumptions accordingly.
Where it is less clear-cut is where the poster may have registered many moons ago but hasn't posted - one the face of it, his PPD may suggest that he's a long-established member, but in reality no-one knows the first thing about him.
I agree, it rankles a bit that some people pop up just to use the board as free advertising - but the concensus to date has been in favour of permitting non-members to sell S2000-related stuff. If we want to change that (either generally or specifically in relation to selling cars themselves) we have to decide what other criteria we are going to apply. s2ki age is the obvious one, I suppose - but how long does someone have to have been a member here before they qualify? And how do we legislate for people who register but never post?
My own view (FWIW) is that the current system is generally satisfactory in terms of its own self-policing. The Carper et al frequently chime in when 0-day posters put their cars up, so anyone reading it is unlikely to be under any great misapprehension about the status of the vendor. At the other end of the spectrum, as marc r has already posted, when a long-standing and well-respected member's car goes up for sale, it frequently generates (spontaneous) good wishes and recommendations from the board membership.
I think most punters can work out for themselves whether they're buying an enthusiast's car or one from some random punter who opportunistically sticks it up on the FS&W board.
That said, I think the idea of a guide for prospective buyers is a good one - most of the contents are likely to be common sense, or even bordering on statements of the bleeding obvious, but they're still things which are worth saying
It's pretty clear-cut when you have a 0 day newly-registered member who is advertising their car - I think most people would look at the poster's s2ki age as a matter of course and make their own assumptions accordingly.
Where it is less clear-cut is where the poster may have registered many moons ago but hasn't posted - one the face of it, his PPD may suggest that he's a long-established member, but in reality no-one knows the first thing about him.
I agree, it rankles a bit that some people pop up just to use the board as free advertising - but the concensus to date has been in favour of permitting non-members to sell S2000-related stuff. If we want to change that (either generally or specifically in relation to selling cars themselves) we have to decide what other criteria we are going to apply. s2ki age is the obvious one, I suppose - but how long does someone have to have been a member here before they qualify? And how do we legislate for people who register but never post?
My own view (FWIW) is that the current system is generally satisfactory in terms of its own self-policing. The Carper et al frequently chime in when 0-day posters put their cars up, so anyone reading it is unlikely to be under any great misapprehension about the status of the vendor. At the other end of the spectrum, as marc r has already posted, when a long-standing and well-respected member's car goes up for sale, it frequently generates (spontaneous) good wishes and recommendations from the board membership.
I think most punters can work out for themselves whether they're buying an enthusiast's car or one from some random punter who opportunistically sticks it up on the FS&W board.
That said, I think the idea of a guide for prospective buyers is a good one - most of the contents are likely to be common sense, or even bordering on statements of the bleeding obvious, but they're still things which are worth saying
11-15-2004, 04:49 AM
#39
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Would it be useful, if say we arrange a once a month discussion about members vs non members selling?
I've just checked my diary and I can do the last Thursday in every calendar month if that helps? We could then get the board into civil war 12 times a year as opposed to the normal 7.
I`m up for it, anyone else?
I've just checked my diary and I can do the last Thursday in every calendar month if that helps? We could then get the board into civil war 12 times a year as opposed to the normal 7.
I`m up for it, anyone else?
11-15-2004, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Turner,Nov 15 2004, 12:39 PM
I agree with the majority of what MarkB says.
The difficulty with this however is that someone has to police it (the mods are the obvious candidates, I guess) and to do that they need hard and fast rules to enforce.
That said, I think the idea of a guide for prospective buyers is a good one - most of the contents are likely to be common sense, or even bordering on statements of the bleeding obvious, but they're still things which are worth saying
it may be very obvious to you and I who's for real and whos here just to flog a car - but we've been here a long time. Imagine you don't spend all day surfing the internet for a moment (difficult I know ) and that you come to an enthusiasts' site for specialist information on buying and see a car for sale - how do you know what's what. let along what an 's2ki age' is?