Long, Mini Cooper v Clio 172 v Leon Cupra v CTR v S2k Comparison
08-26-2003, 04:57 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My girlfriend has recently been ordering cars to test drive for her new company car - I have helped a little 
with the shortlist. Unfortunately her budget doesn't stretch to a company run S2k, but there is always a little room for some VTEC 
So the shortlist has been (in order they arrived and were
)
Mini Cooper
Renault Clio 172
Seat Leon Cupra
Honda Civic Type-R
The Mini looks great to me, definitely a step outside of the normal boring design of most mass produced cars. Exterior was pretty good with the very small overhangs and chunky alloys. The interior too was good to look at - although the boot was smaller than my S I reckon
However, first minus point was the seat... I am a big boy 
(almost 6'5" and about 17 stone) but I couldn't spread myself out over the extra extra wide seat, it was firm enough for my liking, but no lateral support at all.. My girlfriend being considerably smaller than me felt even more awash. The drive itself was spirited and the engine sounded like it was having fun and revved freely around to the redline. However, at the first corner things again took a turn for the worse. Quite a bit of roll, which I was expecting, but lots of power understeer. It squealed a bit power off, but lots under power. I knows its FWD an' all, but just didn't instill any confidence in me. Definitely started off at the bottom of the pile and left us both wishing it was a Cooper S with some decent seats and a bit more grip. 
The Renault was less appealing on first glance at the outside, but endless praise in various mags meant it had to be on my (sorry, my girlfriend's..) list. Sitting down was a delight in comparison to the Mini, the seats far more supportive and adjustable enough to get into a good position. An adjustable steering wheel for Tilt and Length was also a bonus. One of the two things I didn't like was the apparently high seating position, even with the seat down I felt high up - but then again I am used to the S. The second was the gear shift. It felt like my Vectra Gsi (RIP) did after 4 years and 100k miles of abuse, not very positive and a bit sloppy around the edges. Again, this could be a hangover from being used to something a little better Once underway I noticed a bit of torque steer, not surprising really and actually encouraging for the drive ahead. My girlfriend, being more considerate and basically not quite a brave as me had been shifting quite early at about 5/5.5k revs, but with my size 12 I felt obliged to try a little harder. Revving to the red line saw a marked change in the performance, with plenty of power across the top of the range. After a great drive across the Cotswolds I could see why the mags love it so much. Hard to beat I am sure.
The Seat was a bit of a disappointment from the outset. Firstly there was the inability for a novice Seat user to open the driver and passenger doors simultaneously, instead, to open the central locking, then the drivers door and lean in to press a button to open the other doors
Then there was the pulling the interior door handle twice to get out Then there was the no central locking (seemingly) on the boot, so it remains unlocked (but alarmed) when the other doors are locked... 
Maybe I should have read the manual... but surely not for that! Neither of us could get comfy in the Seat's overly firm and not quite supportive enough seats I just couldn't get in the right driving position, again feeling way too high up. Driving was a bit disappointing too, having heard positive things about the way the Seat performs I was looking forward to a good trash around Warwickshire. The performance was there, plenty of low down torque, although I was wondering why it needed 6 gears (found out on the motorway on they way back from V Festival..), fast progress up to the speed limit was a pretty laid back affair and I could see why a couple of run-ins with Cupra R's in the past had been tricky. But find a twisty B road and I felt a lot less comfortable in the Seat than the Clio or my S. The steering, although responsive, felt very numb and the sound of the engine muted overly for my liking. My girlfriend surmised that it was like driving a bus and I had to agree. A nippy bus that would scare your granny rigid on the way to the shops, but a bus nonetheless. However, on said motorway on the way back from V, it was great to waft along pretty silently in 6th and not worry too much about what the front wheels were doing...
The Honda Type R was my secret favourite before we started - can't think why - the more aggressive styling is to both of our likings and the VTEC under the bonnet now seems like a pre-req for any spirited drive The interior is brighter than the Seat's (which I realise now, didn't even merit a mention ) although the Japanese cues such as the 'Audio Control, Mode Press' in the S were kind of evident in the large plastic silver 'lock' button on the drivers door.. Seats were very supportive laterally, but I could have done with some lumbar adjustment and found it a bit difficult to get comfy as a static passenger. Most suprising was the apparent lack of leg room for me, even over the S. However, all these things aside I'd rate the interior top of the pile. The engine note sounds sporty through the cabin as you start up and quick driving rewards you with a pleasant enough soundtrack to stop you having to figure out why the volume control on the Honda stereo is on the opposite side to that in the S... We had this one this weekend (Bank Holiday, Friday to Tuesday, and as it turns out until Wednesday - more marks for Honda 
) and a long drive down to Kent was more relaxing than all the others bar the Seat (including the S). Once in Kent, plenty of country roads over the course of the weekend gave plenty of opportunity to 
The VTEC range is very short in the Civic, 6-8k and needing precise shifts to keep it in VTEC. There also seems to be less urge than the S at the top of the VTEC in 3rd/4th, but in 2nd it's still a lot of fun. Overall, pretty impressed with the engine, but as a passenger it did get a bit buzzy after a long stint of and at about 120 kph (cough) there was a bizarre whistle from the offside door mirror. Probably just on that car though is my guess.
So at the end of all that (assuming you're still with me) the Honda was the overall favourite with the Clio a very close second - in this case the Clio is a better value package and may well be the car that my girlfriend chooses, however, a Cooper S and Leon Cupra R might have made more convincing cases if they had been available. To throw a small spanner in the works, we have a very good company car deal with GM, so Vauxhalls are the next in the line... Astra Coupe Turbo coming up next - not sure how it will feel, but would be a bargain on the scheme..
Today, a drive to work in the S for the first time in four days, been looking forward to it after a few days in the Civic having fun. Sliding into my oh so comfortable seat and feeling the gear lever in the right place, at the right height before retracting the quickest convertible roof in the world was a good start to the week. Although I was actually slightly worried that the Civic would feel as quick as the S, I soon forgot that. A quick run through 1st/2nd/into 3rd soon sorted that out. The S feels much quicker, is happier to rev and the handling is a delight. Less stuffy with the roof off and my ears are thanking me even for just a 15 minute commute.
I can't think of many cars I'd like to replace my S with, eventually, well I can think of a few in my shortlist.. but for now I am very happy to be back in the place I have come to belong in just 6 months of ownership.
We are lucky lucky people
with the shortlist. Unfortunately her budget doesn't stretch to a company run S2k, but there is always a little room for some VTEC So the shortlist has been (in order they arrived and were
)Mini Cooper
Renault Clio 172
Seat Leon Cupra
Honda Civic Type-R
The Mini looks great to me, definitely a step outside of the normal boring design of most mass produced cars. Exterior was pretty good with the very small overhangs and chunky alloys. The interior too was good to look at - although the boot was smaller than my S I reckon
However, first minus point was the seat... I am a big boy (almost 6'5" and about 17 stone) but I couldn't spread myself out over the extra extra wide seat, it was firm enough for my liking, but no lateral support at all.. My girlfriend being considerably smaller than me felt even more awash. The drive itself was spirited and the engine sounded like it was having fun and revved freely around to the redline. However, at the first corner things again took a turn for the worse. Quite a bit of roll, which I was expecting, but lots of power understeer. It squealed a bit power off, but lots under power. I knows its FWD an' all, but just didn't instill any confidence in me. Definitely started off at the bottom of the pile and left us both wishing it was a Cooper S with some decent seats and a bit more grip. The Renault was less appealing on first glance at the outside, but endless praise in various mags meant it had to be on my (sorry, my girlfriend's..) list. Sitting down was a delight in comparison to the Mini, the seats far more supportive and adjustable enough to get into a good position. An adjustable steering wheel for Tilt and Length was also a bonus. One of the two things I didn't like was the apparently high seating position, even with the seat down I felt high up - but then again I am used to the S. The second was the gear shift. It felt like my Vectra Gsi (RIP) did after 4 years and 100k miles of abuse, not very positive and a bit sloppy around the edges. Again, this could be a hangover from being used to something a little better
Once underway I noticed a bit of torque steer, not surprising really and actually encouraging for the drive ahead. My girlfriend, being more considerate and basically not quite a brave as me had been shifting quite early at about 5/5.5k revs, but with my size 12 I felt obliged to try a little harder. Revving to the red line saw a marked change in the performance, with plenty of power across the top of the range. After a great drive across the Cotswolds I could see why the mags love it so much. Hard to beat I am sure.The Seat was a bit of a disappointment from the outset. Firstly there was the inability for a novice Seat user to open the driver and passenger doors simultaneously, instead, to open the central locking, then the drivers door and lean in to press a button to open the other doors
Then there was the pulling the interior door handle twice to get out Then there was the no central locking (seemingly) on the boot, so it remains unlocked (but alarmed) when the other doors are locked... Maybe I should have read the manual... but surely not for that! Neither of us could get comfy in the Seat's overly firm and not quite supportive enough seats I just couldn't get in the right driving position, again feeling way too high up. Driving was a bit disappointing too, having heard positive things about the way the Seat performs I was looking forward to a good trash around Warwickshire. The performance was there, plenty of low down torque, although I was wondering why it needed 6 gears (found out on the motorway on they way back from V Festival..), fast progress up to the speed limit was a pretty laid back affair and I could see why a couple of run-ins with Cupra R's in the past had been tricky. But find a twisty B road and I felt a lot less comfortable in the Seat than the Clio or my S. The steering, although responsive, felt very numb and the sound of the engine muted overly for my liking. My girlfriend surmised that it was like driving a bus and I had to agree. A nippy bus that would scare your granny rigid on the way to the shops, but a bus nonetheless. However, on said motorway on the way back from V, it was great to waft along pretty silently in 6th and not worry too much about what the front wheels were doing...The Honda Type R was my secret favourite before we started - can't think why
- the more aggressive styling is to both of our likings and the VTEC under the bonnet now seems like a pre-req for any spirited drive The interior is brighter than the Seat's (which I realise now, didn't even merit a mention ) although the Japanese cues such as the 'Audio Control, Mode Press' in the S were kind of evident in the large plastic silver 'lock' button on the drivers door.. Seats were very supportive laterally, but I could have done with some lumbar adjustment and found it a bit difficult to get comfy as a static passenger. Most suprising was the apparent lack of leg room for me, even over the S. However, all these things aside I'd rate the interior top of the pile. The engine note sounds sporty through the cabin as you start up and quick driving rewards you with a pleasant enough soundtrack to stop you having to figure out why the volume control on the Honda stereo is on the opposite side to that in the S... We had this one this weekend (Bank Holiday, Friday to Tuesday, and as it turns out until Wednesday - more marks for Honda ) and a long drive down to Kent was more relaxing than all the others bar the Seat (including the S). Once in Kent, plenty of country roads over the course of the weekend gave plenty of opportunity to The VTEC range is very short in the Civic, 6-8k and needing precise shifts to keep it in VTEC. There also seems to be less urge than the S at the top of the VTEC in 3rd/4th, but in 2nd it's still a lot of fun. Overall, pretty impressed with the engine, but as a passenger it did get a bit buzzy after a long stint of and at about 120 kph (cough) there was a bizarre whistle from the offside door mirror. Probably just on that car though is my guess.So at the end of all that (assuming you're still with me) the Honda was the overall favourite with the Clio a very close second - in this case the Clio is a better value package and may well be the car that my girlfriend chooses, however, a Cooper S and Leon Cupra R might have made more convincing cases if they had been available. To throw a small spanner in the works, we have a very good company car deal with GM, so Vauxhalls are the next in the line... Astra Coupe Turbo coming up next - not sure how it will feel, but would be a bargain on the scheme..
Today, a drive to work in the S for the first time in four days, been looking forward to it after a few days in the Civic having fun. Sliding into my oh so comfortable seat and feeling the gear lever in the right place, at the right height before retracting the quickest convertible roof in the world
was a good start to the week. Although I was actually slightly worried that the Civic would feel as quick as the S, I soon forgot that. A quick run through 1st/2nd/into 3rd soon sorted that out. The S feels much quicker, is happier to rev and the handling is a delight. Less stuffy with the roof off and my ears are thanking me even for just a 15 minute commute.I can't think of many cars I'd like to replace my S with, eventually, well I can think of a few in my shortlist.. but for now I am very happy to be back in the place I have come to belong in just 6 months of ownership.
We are lucky lucky people
Great review. A colleague of mine is getting a CTR very soon - looking forward to experiencing it.
08-26-2003, 05:49 AM
#3
Registered User
Good choice there I'd say. The i-VTEC engine in the CTR by the way, brings in the VTEC in 3 stages, 1.5K, 4K and 6K revs. I think those figures are roughly right.
EDIT:
Just checked it's actually...
1500-2000
4000-5000
6000+
EDIT:
Just checked it's actually...
1500-2000
4000-5000
6000+
08-26-2003, 07:07 AM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really? in that case not noticeable at all until the 6k+ band. There was a slight niggle there btw, just as you get to 6k the car seems to take a deep breath for the final leg.. noticeable in 3rd onwards.
Very driveable at lower revs, so I guess the i-VTEC is doing its job lower down.
Very driveable at lower revs, so I guess the i-VTEC is doing its job lower down.
08-26-2003, 07:09 AM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fact, Cedric, were you the black CTR I parked behind at the cashpoint at Sainsbos last night? We both pulled away at the same time and I was going to cut the corner and in the end let you out?? 
Trending Topics
08-26-2003, 07:57 AM
#8
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, definately not the Anniversary Edition.. would have spotted that for sure very nice.
The 6k VTEC thing didn't really slow me down, was just noticeable as it was slight pause before VTEC rather than straight into the higher revs.
As for redline, it seemed to have 8k (ish) -> 9k painted red (but I am red/green colour blind ). Got into 8k+ a couple of times when I looked down but didn't meet the limiter.
The main thing about it was that after a couple of days driving around, I REALLY wanted to get back into my S and have a trash - none of the other cars (apart from the Clio maybe) had that effect. Must be a good thing.
The 6k VTEC thing didn't really slow me down, was just noticeable as it was slight pause before VTEC rather than straight into the higher revs.
As for redline, it seemed to have 8k (ish) -> 9k painted red (but I am red/green colour blind
). Got into 8k+ a couple of times when I looked down but didn't meet the limiter.The main thing about it was that after a couple of days driving around, I REALLY wanted to get back into my S and have a trash - none of the other cars (apart from the Clio maybe) had that effect. Must be a good thing.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post