Hello and Goodbye
02-25-2004, 07:52 AM
#42
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcp
Well I'm thinking. a) the car is a '99 b) It may go on the HPI c) Have you tried selling an S lately theres hundreds- without question marks over engine issues
Well I'm thinking. a) the car is a '99 b) It may go on the HPI c) Have you tried selling an S lately theres hundreds- without question marks over engine issues
02-25-2004, 07:57 AM
#43
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I could be wrong on the whole hpi engine thing. Though having done an Hpi check myself recently you find all sorts of declared info-not necessarily by the owner! I'm getting muddled with it being written off for personal issues than by Honda-my mistake. Still may be pushed for 18k, though I hope he gets the asking price for what he's been through.
02-25-2004, 09:35 AM
#44
Radron,
I assume your claim was under the 1yr extended warranty that Honda give following the oil bolt mod?
If so, I have one of these, and reading the terms and conditions it appears to be a guarantee contract between the customer and Honda UK. Warranty Holdings administer this on Honda's behalf but your contract is with Honda. Warranty Holdings are notorious for declining claims, allegedly!
If I was in your position I would do two things:
First off - write to Ken Kier MD of Honda UK pointing out that the failure was not as a result of the upgrades made to the vehicle, that it has a full service history and that you intend to take matters "to the back stop" (including motoring press) if he does not give your claim further consideration. Telephone him as well and give his reception staff and PA hell until you get to speak to him. Don't forget to point out that you had the car regularly serviced and religiously checked the oil level every time you fuelled up (as per Honda's hand book).
Secondly - write to the SMMT Consumer Affairs Officer (who appear to be the arbitrator under this scheme - details in the t's and c's) with a copy of your letter to Honda and ask them to investigate your claim.
Don't give up - it has to be worth a try and (I'm not a legal eagle - maybe others on the board can comment here) it must be unfair contract terms if they support repudiation of a claim on the grounds that a vehicle has been modified but when those modifications have not caused the failure.
Also, I would imagine that a small end failure would be more likely to be caused by lubrication starvation rather than excessive load, and did a Honda dealer make modifications to the lubrication system recently? Do you have photo's of the failed parts and was there any "blueing" or "scuffing" of the small end bearing surfaces? These would be signs of an oiling problem (and the ECU does not control the oil flow!!)
I assume your claim was under the 1yr extended warranty that Honda give following the oil bolt mod?
If so, I have one of these, and reading the terms and conditions it appears to be a guarantee contract between the customer and Honda UK. Warranty Holdings administer this on Honda's behalf but your contract is with Honda. Warranty Holdings are notorious for declining claims, allegedly!
If I was in your position I would do two things:
First off - write to Ken Kier MD of Honda UK pointing out that the failure was not as a result of the upgrades made to the vehicle, that it has a full service history and that you intend to take matters "to the back stop" (including motoring press) if he does not give your claim further consideration. Telephone him as well and give his reception staff and PA hell until you get to speak to him. Don't forget to point out that you had the car regularly serviced and religiously checked the oil level every time you fuelled up (as per Honda's hand book).
Secondly - write to the SMMT Consumer Affairs Officer (who appear to be the arbitrator under this scheme - details in the t's and c's) with a copy of your letter to Honda and ask them to investigate your claim.
Don't give up - it has to be worth a try and (I'm not a legal eagle - maybe others on the board can comment here) it must be unfair contract terms if they support repudiation of a claim on the grounds that a vehicle has been modified but when those modifications have not caused the failure.
Also, I would imagine that a small end failure would be more likely to be caused by lubrication starvation rather than excessive load, and did a Honda dealer make modifications to the lubrication system recently? Do you have photo's of the failed parts and was there any "blueing" or "scuffing" of the small end bearing surfaces? These would be signs of an oiling problem (and the ECU does not control the oil flow!!)
02-25-2004, 10:53 AM
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could be Ron's saviour 
02-25-2004, 11:27 AM
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Hi everyone
Wow this has turned into quite a conversation.
First of all to those who believe that as the car is modified then the Warranty company should not pay.
All mods except the ECU were fitted by Honda themselves, also Honda in some cases will even source the Mods for you HKS , Mugen for example. The first conclusion they came to in discussion with the Honda mechanics was that it had been over revved because the piston head was dented and the valves were damaged (dropped valve) and were going to say no because this would have been mistreatment or racing (also if you do drop a valve on a track day or if anything goes on a track you are not covered as this constitutes racing). The guys at Chiswick pointed out that this was unlikely because the little end had in fact snapped and hence the damage to the valves etc. There was no evidence of lack of oil i.e no crank wiping etc. There was no apparent reason for the failure (Iknow this as the guys at chiswick had a good look before the WHA people got there). WHA then went hunting around the car, the engineers report from WHA said that a modified ECU was discovered and therefore he believed that the failure was most likely to have been caused by this as control codes may have been changed or the rev limit could have been removed or raised etc and so the warranty should be void.
Having spoken to Spoon and Barwell and got there opinions (who read the report and confirmed that little end failure is exceptionally rare and almost always due to something being wrong with the lubrication system) I spoke to WHA and Honda who basically said we dont care because the engineers report states that it was due to the ECU. What makes me angry is that it has been refused based upon the Engineers lack of knowledge of what a SPoon ECU does, basically a Honda unit with different fueling etc etc.
I have read through the extended warranty several times and cannot find anything about the car not being standard but maybe Im just a bit thick.
I got my ECU from BM and he ran it on his car for over 40K miles without a problem so how likely is it that it goes into my car and causes the little end to snap. Barwell build and race Honda engines for people like Luke Vines and they have very rarely seen a little end failure except in situations of extreme stress or where a defect in either Lubrication or manufacture exist.
Anyhow (deep breath) its a problem that I will continue to pursue, I spoke to a journalist at Autoexpress today about it and he has asked me to send him details and I will be pursuing WHA and HUK and my dealers and everyone else via a solicitor.
I got all of the history for my car from the dealers and my Oil bolt recall was not done until the car was over 2 years old surely this could have something to do with it not being properly lubed for 2 years but when I told Honda or WHA they agin told me to essentially get stuffed.
Please understand that If I had strapped on a supercharger and my engine had been racing and then popped I would have taken it on the chin and thought silly me, but blaming an ECU that adds next to nothing in extra power for the failure of a very very strong piece of metal when someone is pottering up an A road at 40 gauls me to the extreme.
For those of you speculating on the value of my car its an 00 not a 99 and the chaps at Chiswick seemed to think that it was a fair price and mint ones on Autotrader seem to reflect that.
The car is under the 4th year of engine warranty plus I have an extended warranty I have serviced it religiously including optional oil services and as those who know me will know if it even creaks it goes back to the dealers.
there we are apologies if I sound frustrated but I am
Wow this has turned into quite a conversation.
First of all to those who believe that as the car is modified then the Warranty company should not pay.
All mods except the ECU were fitted by Honda themselves, also Honda in some cases will even source the Mods for you HKS , Mugen for example. The first conclusion they came to in discussion with the Honda mechanics was that it had been over revved because the piston head was dented and the valves were damaged (dropped valve) and were going to say no because this would have been mistreatment or racing (also if you do drop a valve on a track day or if anything goes on a track you are not covered as this constitutes racing). The guys at Chiswick pointed out that this was unlikely because the little end had in fact snapped and hence the damage to the valves etc. There was no evidence of lack of oil i.e no crank wiping etc. There was no apparent reason for the failure (Iknow this as the guys at chiswick had a good look before the WHA people got there). WHA then went hunting around the car, the engineers report from WHA said that a modified ECU was discovered and therefore he believed that the failure was most likely to have been caused by this as control codes may have been changed or the rev limit could have been removed or raised etc and so the warranty should be void.
Having spoken to Spoon and Barwell and got there opinions (who read the report and confirmed that little end failure is exceptionally rare and almost always due to something being wrong with the lubrication system) I spoke to WHA and Honda who basically said we dont care because the engineers report states that it was due to the ECU. What makes me angry is that it has been refused based upon the Engineers lack of knowledge of what a SPoon ECU does, basically a Honda unit with different fueling etc etc.
I have read through the extended warranty several times and cannot find anything about the car not being standard but maybe Im just a bit thick.
I got my ECU from BM and he ran it on his car for over 40K miles without a problem so how likely is it that it goes into my car and causes the little end to snap. Barwell build and race Honda engines for people like Luke Vines and they have very rarely seen a little end failure except in situations of extreme stress or where a defect in either Lubrication or manufacture exist.
Anyhow (deep breath) its a problem that I will continue to pursue, I spoke to a journalist at Autoexpress today about it and he has asked me to send him details and I will be pursuing WHA and HUK and my dealers and everyone else via a solicitor.
I got all of the history for my car from the dealers and my Oil bolt recall was not done until the car was over 2 years old surely this could have something to do with it not being properly lubed for 2 years but when I told Honda or WHA they agin told me to essentially get stuffed.
Please understand that If I had strapped on a supercharger and my engine had been racing and then popped I would have taken it on the chin and thought silly me, but blaming an ECU that adds next to nothing in extra power for the failure of a very very strong piece of metal when someone is pottering up an A road at 40 gauls me to the extreme.
For those of you speculating on the value of my car its an 00 not a 99 and the chaps at Chiswick seemed to think that it was a fair price and mint ones on Autotrader seem to reflect that.
The car is under the 4th year of engine warranty plus I have an extended warranty I have serviced it religiously including optional oil services and as those who know me will know if it even creaks it goes back to the dealers.
there we are apologies if I sound frustrated but I am
02-25-2004, 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by radron
Thanks for the tip on the engine guys
Just bought it so hopefully things are looking up!
Thanks for the tip on the engine guys
Just bought it so hopefully things are looking up!
