rexer200

Help, I've just spent £350 on tyres and alignment and my car is worse to drive :-(

I have a completely standard AP2 2009 GT100 with just 16k miles which has newish OEM RE050 MZ's on the rear and it had original, 6 year old and cracked! RE050 MZ's on the front. As far as I know the car has never been aligned before so was still set to factory settings.

Following advice on this forum I took my car to Wheels in Motion in Chesham who first greased the alignment bolts, then fitted 2 new front RE002's in stock 215/45x17 size and then gave it a 4 wheel alignment.

The problem I have is because I had the alignment bolts greased first I don't have any before settings for the suspension - so ignore the 'before' column in the alignment print out.

I've now completely bedded in the front tyres but sadly all the fun factor has gone out of driving the car!

I think this is mainly due to the steering feel. Before the alignment and new tyres the steering used to be quite light around the centre then weigh up quite quickly, it meant I could drive it with just small inputs from my wrists through a series of left right bends. The steering used to feel very non-linear which I really liked as the weight in the bends helped me sense the cornering forces. It was an absolute joy to drive on the road, probably not the fastest, but big fun!

Unfortunately the setup I have now gives probably slightly higher performance BUT that nice steering feel I used to have is almost completely gone. Now the steering is much more linear (like any other rep car) and it just doesn't have the same feel through the steering that used to make it so much fun.

Here is the alignment I now have



Notice the front wheels are very slightly toe-out which I was told would give me even better turn-in although I'm definately not experiencing that.

I have tried playing around with tyre pressures from 28 - 36psi and the harder pressures make things better but the steering feel I used to have is still gone.

Has anyone experienced similar, any advice? I'm tempted to go back to Wheels in Motion but what setting to use? I use the car as a fast road car and don't intend to take it on track.

I've still yet to find the stock AP2 alignment settings all in degrees and minutes so I can compare.

lovegroova

The car won't have been anywhere near factory settings after 6 years - it ill have been well knocked around unless you were very lucky.

Ask them to lower the caster, that will give you the light around the straight ahead and weighing up more feel you liked. Somewhere around 5[sup]o[/sup]45' will do it.

You can find the MY04 alignment settings in degrees and minutes in the FAQ (except for the toe) https://www.s2ki.com/...ost__p__5798519

(I've now updated the FAQ to include the conversion based on this chart).

3mm is 24' of toe in total, so 12'±8' each side

PS you have an AP1 - all UK cars are AP1. AP2 only applies to cars sold in the USA and Japan.

rexer200

Thanks! I'd read something similar on a general alignment forum.

Does anyone have the factory AP2 alignment settings all in degrees and minutes so I can compare with what I have?

What is the factory AP2 caster settings?

lovegroova

See the link to the FAQ which has all the settings in degrees and minutes

You do NOT have an AP2.

rexer200

Ok thanks for clarification on AP1 / AP2 thing:
So these are the factory settings for my 2009?

QUOTE
Wheel alignment from 2004 workshop manual
Item Measurement Qualification Standard or New Service Limit

Wheel alignment Camber
Front at inspection −0°30'±30'
Front at adjustment −0°30'±10'
Rear at inspection −1°30'±30'
Rear at adjustment −1°30'±10'

Caster
Front at inspection 6°00'±45'
Front at adjustment 6°00'±15'

Total toe-in
Front 0±2 mm (0±0.08 in.); 0°±16'
Rear 3±2 (0.12±0.08 in.) ; 24'±16'

Front wheel turning angle
Inside wheel 34°00'±2°
Outside wheel 29°00' (Reference)


So it seems at the moment I'm on the upper most limit of the factory caster and 5[sup]o[/sup]45' will be on the minimum.
Any thoughts on the toe-out on the front - should I just get the fronts set to parallel?

rexer200

Also any idea why WIM have used 0°55' as the target front camber and the factory setting are 0°30'

lovegroova

I've updated the settings in the FAQ so it's a bit easier to read (degrees and minutes first) but what you have there is correct.

More front camber makes the car nicely pointy (what some people would call a "fast road" setup, a phrase I hate but that's by the by). They have done alot of S2000s, so have probably arrived at those figures based on what most people like.

If you explain to them what you have experienced and how you would like the car to drive, they will be able to do that for you - they are very good and will happily explain things as they go.

Zero toe is best, but those figures are small enough not to make a noticeable difference.

Lowering the caster will change the steering feel so go for somewhere at the lower range that will give you the feel you described in the first post.

rexer200

If I'm going to spend another £95 on an alignment at Wheels in Motion I want to make sure I get it right this time.

So looking at the settings I currently have I would only need a tiny reduction in caster to achieve the desired steering feel? - i.e. currently I have caster of 6°11' on the left so just a reduction of 26' to get to 5°45' caster? And 6°29' on the right so just a reduction of 44' to get to 5°45' caster?

The reason I'm questioning is that it seems a very small change to make quite a big difference to feel.
I'm wondering if also the increased front camber I have is actually losing me steering feel too?

Or as it seems to look at from the tyre sidewall deflection when parked, maybe the RE002's are just not as stiff as the RE050 MZ's?

Lastly I've read the theory but I still don't fully understand why toe out is supposed to improve turn in. Logically I would've thought toe-in would improve turn in since with both wheels pointing in slightly as you turn the steering and the weight transfers to the outside the wheel is already turned in? Again logically the outside wheel has more weight on it and therefore has more influence on cornering than the inside wheel?

Lots of questions I know but I want to get it right !

lovegroova

Hopefully WiM will charge you less as you only had it done recently - they are good guys, so ask for a discount!

Given the total recommended range is 1 degree, a change of 3/4 of a degree is a lot, relatively speaking.
I've had castor ranging from 5[sup]o[/sup]45 to 6[sup]o[/sup]30' and there is a big difference in feel - here are my thoughts from another thread:


I've no idea how toe in/out on the front axle works, I'm afraid! I've always had it close to zero.

Capt A

You may have already found it but the geometry is in the car handbook which hopefully you will have. The data given is consistent with what's mentioned by WIM except for the camber as you have already suggested. WIM give a target of -55' +/-10' but the car's handbook says -30' +/-10'. Your front left was therefore within spec but your right was a long way off (+13'). Camber differences in my very limited experience will make the car pull one way - in your case it would be to the right. Did you have this issue ?