RE: Voting anyone?
02-15-2004, 08:31 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: S.Florida
Posts: 4,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must say that I am dissapointed in a number of things here.
1. that the thread turned into what it turned into
2. the thread was closed...what happened to free speech?
3. I agreee Dan's statment may have been out of the norm and maybe even disrespectful...however he is entitled to his opinions,,, whether they be respectfulll of not.
4. most importantly.
President Bush is out to bring this county back to the dark ages with regards to personal rights
it is his intetion to make abortion illegal...taking away a womans right to choose.
He has appointed many right wingers to run this country into the ground. and take away the freedoms this country was built on
Tax cuts are nice, but how long do you really think they will last with the defacit spiraling out of control?
there are more crooked politicians in office than ever before and if we all don't use our right to vote...then it becomes our fault..........................
Mitch
1. that the thread turned into what it turned into
2. the thread was closed...what happened to free speech?
3. I agreee Dan's statment may have been out of the norm and maybe even disrespectful...however he is entitled to his opinions,,, whether they be respectfulll of not.
4. most importantly.
President Bush is out to bring this county back to the dark ages with regards to personal rights
it is his intetion to make abortion illegal...taking away a womans right to choose.
He has appointed many right wingers to run this country into the ground. and take away the freedoms this country was built on
Tax cuts are nice, but how long do you really think they will last with the defacit spiraling out of control?
there are more crooked politicians in office than ever before and if we all don't use our right to vote...then it becomes our fault..........................
Mitch
02-15-2004, 08:48 AM
#2
I consider my self a "liberal conservative" (talk about an oxymoron, eh??). I have voted Republican the last few elections simply b/c of my disdain for Slick Willy's shenanigans in the White House. However, I don't think I can bring myself to vote that way again this year for the reasons Mitch points out. Bush's agenda & policies are seriously eroding individual freedoms, and lining the pockets of big business and the top 5% wealthiest of Americans (which, ironically, probably includes many of us). As an attorney who represents individuals and takes on big business every day, I can't support that.
And don't even get me started on Jeb...
And don't even get me started on Jeb...
02-15-2004, 09:47 AM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by S2KSuzuka
3. I agreee Dan's statment may have been out of the norm and maybe even direspectful...however he is entitled to his opions,,, weather they be respectfulll of not.
3. I agreee Dan's statment may have been out of the norm and maybe even direspectful...however he is entitled to his opions,,, weather they be respectfulll of not.
02-15-2004, 10:01 AM
#4
Registered User
Just a note before you jump down our throats. The thread starter closed the thread for whatever reason. A
lso a note about free speech here. There is none. As a rule, politics are NOT allowed to be discussed. We're more lenient because we know each other offline.
lso a note about free speech here. There is none. As a rule, politics are NOT allowed to be discussed. We're more lenient because we know each other offline.
02-15-2004, 11:36 AM
#5
Registered User
Tommy, moderator or not, don't ever tell anyone to "Shut the f*** up" like you did in the other thread.
To clear things up, the thread was not closed by a moderator, and it was not because of free speech isues...the thread was just getting too heated.
People didn't like my comments, I can accept that and will move on.
Gan, my lack of voting does NOT, however, make my opinion on anything in America any less relevant than someone who did vote. I will gladly vote when a presidential candidate shows up who I truly believe will do a world of good, as far as MY view of the world sits (and people, don't even think of making mock comments on what I think the world is like, it's not funny, and doesn't help the discussion). All candidates so far have provided me with nothing but choices of "Who will do the less harm"...because of that, I choose not to vote for any of them. That's MY right as an American, and it doesn't make me any LESS of an American, NOR does it remove my RIGHT to state my opinion otherwise about any of the current candidates.
To clear things up, the thread was not closed by a moderator, and it was not because of free speech isues...the thread was just getting too heated.
People didn't like my comments, I can accept that and will move on.
Gan, my lack of voting does NOT, however, make my opinion on anything in America any less relevant than someone who did vote. I will gladly vote when a presidential candidate shows up who I truly believe will do a world of good, as far as MY view of the world sits (and people, don't even think of making mock comments on what I think the world is like, it's not funny, and doesn't help the discussion). All candidates so far have provided me with nothing but choices of "Who will do the less harm"...because of that, I choose not to vote for any of them. That's MY right as an American, and it doesn't make me any LESS of an American, NOR does it remove my RIGHT to state my opinion otherwise about any of the current candidates.
Trending Topics
02-15-2004, 03:31 PM
#8
Registered User
Yes, it was to me. Like you, I stand behind my comments. If you want to have a voice in this country, make a difference by going out there and voting for someone who might help direct this country into a better direction. Remember that nobody is perfect, and no candidate will ever be the perfect for this country.
Also, I do stand VERYYYYY strongly on my comments with regards to your terrorist post. My brother doesn't risk his life to fight for the freedoms we all have, to have people like yourself make such RIDICULOUS and asinine comments as to hoping terrorist wipe out our government so we can start "Fresh".
Also, I do stand VERYYYYY strongly on my comments with regards to your terrorist post. My brother doesn't risk his life to fight for the freedoms we all have, to have people like yourself make such RIDICULOUS and asinine comments as to hoping terrorist wipe out our government so we can start "Fresh".
02-15-2004, 03:39 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Land of the landeaus
Posts: 2,956
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The most dangerous words are the censored words so I would like to see discourse, even
when it gets heated, to continue. Eventually, like most discussions, the volleys will
subside and the issues which began the topic will return.
Dan has some passionate opinions about politicians and while I found his vision of how
to alleviate them (nuke the capital) to be a bit too "fringe" to be taken seriously, he has
every right to express his opinions, albeit with an obvious tinge of poor taste.
I've traveled to more than 45 countries while being a career military man and can
tell you that our government is not perfect, far from it. However, on our worst day we
are better governed than 95% of the rest of the world and that's probably going to be
the best ratio we're going to get as long as human beings are doing the governing.
In Turkey, men send their women (wives and daughters) to whorehouses to pay for
debts incurred by the men. Nah....I'll pass on that homestead. In Bulgaria, women
were selling their daughters on the street, money for sex. Nope, that won't do. Don't
want to live there either.
In Italy, the transportation workers will strike on a moment's notice and literally close
the country down. If you can get a letter sent from Napoli to Roma in one week,
consider life sweet.
My point? The only thing in life (to me) that is perfect is the love of a child, other
than that, we're a work in progress...both as a nation to be governed and as a nation
of people who have, in a span of 250 years, become a beacon of light for civilizations
the world over.
It's not perfect, but democracy is a living ideal, not something etched into parchment
to be displayed under bullet proof glass. It needs to be made fresh, like bread, otherwise, it will become stale and ineffective. Herein lies our need to vote.
Unfortunately, the people who treasure democracy the most are our newest citizens
who have starved for it. Too many born in the USA Americans stay home on Tuesdays. It is sad.
To paraphrase Dan's thoughts, democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. However, I prefer to see our chosen system of government as simply a means to overcome an idea with another and better idea. When you do not exercise your right to vote, you essentially silent your own opinion, nobody else's. For the life of me, I cannot fathom a reason why an American would want to suppress their own voice, especially given the fact that so many brave men and women over the years have sacrified their own to preserve yours.
when it gets heated, to continue. Eventually, like most discussions, the volleys will
subside and the issues which began the topic will return.
Dan has some passionate opinions about politicians and while I found his vision of how
to alleviate them (nuke the capital) to be a bit too "fringe" to be taken seriously, he has
every right to express his opinions, albeit with an obvious tinge of poor taste.
I've traveled to more than 45 countries while being a career military man and can
tell you that our government is not perfect, far from it. However, on our worst day we
are better governed than 95% of the rest of the world and that's probably going to be
the best ratio we're going to get as long as human beings are doing the governing.
In Turkey, men send their women (wives and daughters) to whorehouses to pay for
debts incurred by the men. Nah....I'll pass on that homestead. In Bulgaria, women
were selling their daughters on the street, money for sex. Nope, that won't do. Don't
want to live there either.
In Italy, the transportation workers will strike on a moment's notice and literally close
the country down. If you can get a letter sent from Napoli to Roma in one week,
consider life sweet.
My point? The only thing in life (to me) that is perfect is the love of a child, other
than that, we're a work in progress...both as a nation to be governed and as a nation
of people who have, in a span of 250 years, become a beacon of light for civilizations
the world over.
It's not perfect, but democracy is a living ideal, not something etched into parchment
to be displayed under bullet proof glass. It needs to be made fresh, like bread, otherwise, it will become stale and ineffective. Herein lies our need to vote.
Unfortunately, the people who treasure democracy the most are our newest citizens
who have starved for it. Too many born in the USA Americans stay home on Tuesdays. It is sad.
To paraphrase Dan's thoughts, democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. However, I prefer to see our chosen system of government as simply a means to overcome an idea with another and better idea. When you do not exercise your right to vote, you essentially silent your own opinion, nobody else's. For the life of me, I cannot fathom a reason why an American would want to suppress their own voice, especially given the fact that so many brave men and women over the years have sacrified their own to preserve yours.
02-15-2004, 04:10 PM
#10
Registered User
Yeah, can we all finally get past my "terror" comment and discuss the underlying issue I was trying to get at in the first place? Almost everyone is so bundled up attacking me for a single comment made in haste that they've ignored what I was atempting to say.
As I said in previous posts, I'm well aware that our country affords us significantly more opportunities than most. My contention is, and always has been, that our government has become merely a shell of what it was intended to be.
I'm willing to listen to counter-examples, but here are a few examples of where I see our governmental system failing. Congressional Bills...we tack on multiple riders to an important cause. Now I understand the intent of this practice is to speed up government. There's probably no way anyone could vote on every single individual issue that came across the floor, so, we package a number of "minor" issues in with a "major" issue. The "minor" issues are either passed or shot down based solely upon the merits of the "major" issue on the bill. The idea of speeding up government in this way is good in theory, but it has a major downside...bad riders get passed and good riders get rejected out of hand because they were stuck to another issue. I'm not saying I have a solution to this problem, but if I come up with one I'll be sure to let someone in power know.
This brings me to another issue. We supposedly all have an equal say in how the government is run (through voting, how ironic, no?). But no matter how useful an idea is, just TRY and get in to see your local representative if you don't have campaign money sticking out of your back pocket. I'm not saying the politician is necessarily crooked, but he's infinitely more interested in speaking with someone who could help him get re-elected next term. Some could categorize this as human greed, some could say it was simply self-preservation, I suppose it depends on the politician. Do I have a solution for this problem? No, but if anyone else did, it would have either been implemented by now or they're being ignored by the greedy politicians.
I'm sure I could type all day on ideas of how the government doesn't work the way it was supposed to work. Quite a bit of it works, such as the part which allows me to speak my mind such as right now. I'm being told time and time again to vote for somebody (to the point of meaning "ANYbody")I believe will make a good difference in the world, but my belief is that person has not yet presented themselves, so why should I vote for who's left?
Before anybody skims over my comments and doesn't pay close attention, let me say it again...I love America, I love the rights it affords me, I think we're doing the best we can given human nature, etc. But, it is far from perfect, and THAT'S what I get so frustrated about. One has to make compromise after compromise, and deal after deal, to get high enough to do anything useful, but by the time you get there, you've compromised and dealed your way into a position that's controlled by the whims and demands of the people you compromised and made deals with in the first place. If a good-hearted politician could wheel and deal his way into power, and then be afforded the opportunity to COMPLETELY separate himself form the deals he made to get there, only THEN might they have the power to make grandiose accomplishments.
As I said in previous posts, I'm well aware that our country affords us significantly more opportunities than most. My contention is, and always has been, that our government has become merely a shell of what it was intended to be.
I'm willing to listen to counter-examples, but here are a few examples of where I see our governmental system failing. Congressional Bills...we tack on multiple riders to an important cause. Now I understand the intent of this practice is to speed up government. There's probably no way anyone could vote on every single individual issue that came across the floor, so, we package a number of "minor" issues in with a "major" issue. The "minor" issues are either passed or shot down based solely upon the merits of the "major" issue on the bill. The idea of speeding up government in this way is good in theory, but it has a major downside...bad riders get passed and good riders get rejected out of hand because they were stuck to another issue. I'm not saying I have a solution to this problem, but if I come up with one I'll be sure to let someone in power know.
This brings me to another issue. We supposedly all have an equal say in how the government is run (through voting, how ironic, no?). But no matter how useful an idea is, just TRY and get in to see your local representative if you don't have campaign money sticking out of your back pocket. I'm not saying the politician is necessarily crooked, but he's infinitely more interested in speaking with someone who could help him get re-elected next term. Some could categorize this as human greed, some could say it was simply self-preservation, I suppose it depends on the politician. Do I have a solution for this problem? No, but if anyone else did, it would have either been implemented by now or they're being ignored by the greedy politicians.
I'm sure I could type all day on ideas of how the government doesn't work the way it was supposed to work. Quite a bit of it works, such as the part which allows me to speak my mind such as right now. I'm being told time and time again to vote for somebody (to the point of meaning "ANYbody")I believe will make a good difference in the world, but my belief is that person has not yet presented themselves, so why should I vote for who's left?
Before anybody skims over my comments and doesn't pay close attention, let me say it again...I love America, I love the rights it affords me, I think we're doing the best we can given human nature, etc. But, it is far from perfect, and THAT'S what I get so frustrated about. One has to make compromise after compromise, and deal after deal, to get high enough to do anything useful, but by the time you get there, you've compromised and dealed your way into a position that's controlled by the whims and demands of the people you compromised and made deals with in the first place. If a good-hearted politician could wheel and deal his way into power, and then be afforded the opportunity to COMPLETELY separate himself form the deals he made to get there, only THEN might they have the power to make grandiose accomplishments.