Should the government save our auto industry?
08-07-2008, 09:43 AM
#11
Originally Posted by OhioRacer,Aug 7 2008, 12:17 PM
Once again I say let the free market do what it is suppose to do. It is self-correcting. The weak and stupid are supposed to be pruned. If the Big 2.5 were caught with their pants down (AGAIN! - remember the 70's and the original Japanese car invasion?) then they are incompetent in some aspect of their business. The Japanese have been focused on hybrids/etc. for years. That proved to be smart business. Why should we bail out incompetent business managers? If I make a strategic mistake in my firm I am penalized. If I make smart decisions, I am rewarded. No one saves my employees if I make an error in judgement. We've been clamoring for a free market economy in other parts of the world, and even went to war to get it, and now we have it and don't like it because other countries are out-smarting us. Boo-hoo. I'll buy American when you give me a comparable value.
In principle, I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, as I see it, is what is the effect on the entire economy, if we lose one our largest industries/employers.
The problem is that the government has been meddling and stacking the deck for certain industries for so long that we don't really have a real free trade environment.
But I do understand your point as a small business owner.
08-07-2008, 10:05 AM
#12
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Unions are becoming the downfall of all manufacturing jobs nationwide. How can you expect to pay someone $60 an hour to work on an assembly line building cars nobody wants and expect to make money?
GM are saying they NOW need to refocus on the type of cars they build ie smaller, fuel efficient etc...HELLO!!!! Toyota, Nissan and Honda have been doing this since the 80's!! It's laughable!
If I open a restaurant and sell crappy food while paying my staff incredible amounts, will the government bail me out too? Hmmm
GM are saying they NOW need to refocus on the type of cars they build ie smaller, fuel efficient etc...HELLO!!!! Toyota, Nissan and Honda have been doing this since the 80's!! It's laughable!
If I open a restaurant and sell crappy food while paying my staff incredible amounts, will the government bail me out too? Hmmm
08-07-2008, 10:41 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Zippy,Aug 7 2008, 01:43 PM
Carmen,
In principle, I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, as I see it, is what is the effect on the entire economy, if we lose one our largest industries/employers.
The problem is that the government has been meddling and stacking the deck for certain industries for so long that we don't really have a real free trade environment.
But I do understand your point as a small business owner.
In principle, I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, as I see it, is what is the effect on the entire economy, if we lose one our largest industries/employers.
The problem is that the government has been meddling and stacking the deck for certain industries for so long that we don't really have a real free trade environment.
But I do understand your point as a small business owner.
08-07-2008, 11:01 AM
#14
Originally Posted by Zippy,Aug 7 2008, 12:43 PM
Carmen,
In principle, I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, as I see it, is what is the effect on the entire economy, if we lose one our largest industries/employers.
The problem is that the government has been meddling and stacking the deck for certain industries for so long that we don't really have a real free trade environment.
But I do understand your point as a small business owner.
In principle, I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, as I see it, is what is the effect on the entire economy, if we lose one our largest industries/employers.
The problem is that the government has been meddling and stacking the deck for certain industries for so long that we don't really have a real free trade environment.
But I do understand your point as a small business owner.
I hear what you are saying but this "propping up" of certain industries has been a house of cards and just perpetuates the problem IMHO. Government meddling has created alot of this mess. Perhaps Chrysler was destined to die long ago. Perhaps a new, better auto company would have risen from her ashes. Every time the government tries to change destiny, as determined by the free market economy, it screws things up. The same thing is happening with the mortgage crisis. More incompetent, greedy business people making stupid decisions. As a result, they have a crisis in their business. Our governement's solution? Let's let the taxpayer bail out these business for their stupid decisions. I don't get it.
08-07-2008, 11:04 AM
#15
Former Moderator
Whoa, wait just a minute. 
Carmen -- It's not just the Big Three American automobile manufacturers that are to blame for our current woes. We Americans are in this together -- the whole country. It's called a synergy. It was the American consumers that clamored for SUVs and big fat inefficient autos. If supply and demand were supposed to be the whole answer, then it's clear that Ford was providing exactly those vehicles that Americans were willing to buy in sufficient quantities for them to make a quick profit year after year. The demand was completely different in Europe where all three of the American companies were successfully marketing a much better and more fitting selection of vehicles. The reason that Ford loved to sell us those heavy, gas guzzling F150 PUs is that they were in demand; and -- and they made money. And making money is the end-all American corporate goal. Now we consumers want to shift gears overnight and suddenly be presented with a rational array of efficient autos to choose from. Well, dream on, America -- and don't put all the blame on the manufacturers -- they provided the supply -- but we supplied the demand!
Carmen -- It's not just the Big Three American automobile manufacturers that are to blame for our current woes. We Americans are in this together -- the whole country. It's called a synergy. It was the American consumers that clamored for SUVs and big fat inefficient autos. If supply and demand were supposed to be the whole answer, then it's clear that Ford was providing exactly those vehicles that Americans were willing to buy in sufficient quantities for them to make a quick profit year after year. The demand was completely different in Europe where all three of the American companies were successfully marketing a much better and more fitting selection of vehicles. The reason that Ford loved to sell us those heavy, gas guzzling F150 PUs is that they were in demand; and -- and they made money. And making money is the end-all American corporate goal. Now we consumers want to shift gears overnight and suddenly be presented with a rational array of efficient autos to choose from. Well, dream on, America -- and don't put all the blame on the manufacturers -- they provided the supply -- but we supplied the demand!
08-07-2008, 11:04 AM
#16
Originally Posted by valentine,Aug 7 2008, 02:41 PM
I agree, Zippy. The problem as I see it is all those folks who work FOR the company who do not make industry decisions will be without jobs. They and their families are dependent on the industry. The execs who make the decisions are paid in millions while the average worker will be unable to support himself if the industry goes down the tubes. Its a much larger problem than what one would face should there only be less than 100 employees involved. There will also be the domino effect when all those industries who support the auto industry go down the tubes as well. I think I'll run out and buy a cadillac.
Could you please buy a Chrysler instead of a Cadillac? 
08-07-2008, 11:19 AM
#17
Originally Posted by S1997,Aug 7 2008, 02:04 PM
Whoa, wait just a minute. Carmen -- It's not just the Big Three American automobile manufacturers that are to blame for our current woes. We Americans are in this together -- the whole country. It's called a synergy. It was the American consumers that clamored for SUVs and big fat inefficient autos. If supply and demand were supposed to be the whole answer, then it's clear that Ford was providing exactly those vehicles that Americans were willing to buy in sufficient quantities for them to make a quick profit year after year. The demand was completely different in Europe where all three of the American companies were successfully marketing a much better and more fitting selection of vehicles. The reason that Ford loved to sell us those heavy, gas guzzling F150 PUs is that they were in demand and -- and they made money. And making money is the end-all American corporate goal. Now we consumers want to shift gears overnight and suddenly be presented with a rational array of efficient autos to choose from. Well, dream on, America -- and don't put all the blame on the manufacturers -- they provided the supply -- but we supplied the demand! So nobody deserves any kudos -- b ...bb. but me.
Carmen -- It's not just the Big Three American automobile manufacturers that are to blame for our current woes. We Americans are in this together -- the whole country. It's called a synergy. It was the American consumers that clamored for SUVs and big fat inefficient autos. If supply and demand were supposed to be the whole answer, then it's clear that Ford was providing exactly those vehicles that Americans were willing to buy in sufficient quantities for them to make a quick profit year after year. The demand was completely different in Europe where all three of the American companies were successfully marketing a much better and more fitting selection of vehicles. The reason that Ford loved to sell us those heavy, gas guzzling F150 PUs is that they were in demand and -- and they made money. And making money is the end-all American corporate goal. Now we consumers want to shift gears overnight and suddenly be presented with a rational array of efficient autos to choose from. Well, dream on, America -- and don't put all the blame on the manufacturers -- they provided the supply -- but we supplied the demand! So nobody deserves any kudos -- b ...bb. but me.
08-07-2008, 11:23 AM
#18
Aren't the big three saddled by long term pension and retiree health insurance benefits that the foreign companies are not?
If so, that has to play a huge role in their financial situation...
Not to say they should not have been watching what the competition was selling more closely.........
If so, that has to play a huge role in their financial situation...
Not to say they should not have been watching what the competition was selling more closely.........
08-07-2008, 12:54 PM
#19
You are dead on, Lainey. No doubt product planning (or lack there-of) is hurting the US auto industry right now. But it's not all bad on that front. Anybody seen or driven a new Malabu? Pretty nice ride if you are in the market for an Accord/Camry/Altima type vehicle. Mustangs will always sell. Cadilac has some nice lux offerings. Ford builds some great cars...its just that most of them are in Europe and Oz.
There's no doubt that pension and health care benefits now being paid to retirees is a serious drain on domestic auto makers. I could definitely see some type of government bailout that involved taking over a portion of that burden. But the unions would have to agree to reduced benefits for current and future workers or it would only be a short term fix. And I don't see that happening.
Then again, what IS the US auto industry? If Buicks built in China don't count, how about Hondas from Ohio, Hyundais from Alabama, Nissans from Mississippi or Toyotas from Indiana and Kentucky?
There's no doubt that pension and health care benefits now being paid to retirees is a serious drain on domestic auto makers. I could definitely see some type of government bailout that involved taking over a portion of that burden. But the unions would have to agree to reduced benefits for current and future workers or it would only be a short term fix. And I don't see that happening.
Then again, what IS the US auto industry? If Buicks built in China don't count, how about Hondas from Ohio, Hyundais from Alabama, Nissans from Mississippi or Toyotas from Indiana and Kentucky?
08-07-2008, 12:57 PM
#20
I think there should be a transformative restructuring of compensation system for all employees at auto companies. If you look at the Japanese model, their executives are not compensated at a level US executives are. There is something distinctly wrong when high level management types are making millions while the company is struggling. Times have changed. We can not afford to pay someone $100.00 for same work that can be done else where for $10.00 just because we live in USA. In order to be competitive, cuts will have to be made. Senior executives should be the first to take the cut but I seriously dout this will happen. Only draconian measure such as bankruptcy will splash some cold water on all those concerned. This is a complex problem with 2nd and 3rd order of effects. It is truly sad. The mighty have fallen.