lyndon_h

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PokS2k

s2kskibum

Flat tax YEAH!

I don't understand why "the rich" have to pay any more, period. Just because I work harder, perhaps smarter, teaching myself something that is marketable, and therefore make a lot of money, I should have to pay more taxes? I get penalized for being industrious? Even though I create jobs and employ others? That sucks.

At least I have figured out a big loop hole that works for me...!

I used to be a bleeding heart liberal. Then I made some money, and am now appalled how indignant people are about their "right" to a better life. Affordable housing, like owning a house (especially here, in a resort area) is a right? Affordable day care. Can't afford daycare? - you can't afford to keep squirting kids out, then. Babies are not "miracles." If they are, look at all the "miracles" the crack whores are performing everyday. Don't get me started on the costs of health care, and indigent care.

Arrggghhhh. Going to refill the coffe and calm down!

PokS2k

s2kskibum, I believe a FLAT tax would actually increase your taxes as well as others in the top wage earners. A Flat tax by itself does not reduce the amount of money the gov't spends, only how it is collected. If I were a low wage earner, I would not have a problem with a flat tax because my taxes would probably not go up, but the well off's would.

It eliminates the 'big loop hole' you mention as well as other deductions.

In my opinion, you cannot move to a flat tax without increasing Gov't expenditures. For instance, chartities would become bankrupt and depend on a different source of funds, home ownership and mortgages would go down considerably causing a collapse of the real estate market.

While many people complain about 'social programs' and the wealthy subsidizing the poor, they forget that the ability to write off their mortgages on expensive properties is actually subsidized in the tax write off. I guess you could say that renters are subsidizing homeowners who can write off mortgage interest and property tax.

s2kskibum

Flat tax = everyone pays the same.

If I payed less taxes, I would be much more inclined to give more to the charities OF MY CHOICE. Right now, I feel like a lot of my taxes go to "charity cases."

Don't see your case regarding home owenership and mortages....?

Renters are subsidizing homeowners...? Wouldn't they be homeless without people willing and able to provide them housing? Sure, writing off mortage interest is great, but owning rental properties is a hassle. Been there, done that, moved on!

PokS2k

[QUOTE]Originally posted by charlie
My question to liberals is what exactly IS enough entitlement? What exactly are American Citizens responsible for in their individual lives?

PokS2k

Are you saying that a family that makes $40K is going to pay the same as one that makes $2M? The math won't work. A flat tax % is the only way to do that. Any Flat Tax proposal I have seen is really a Flat Tax %, not an absolute dollar amount. How would someone making $15K pay? Will they work just to pay tax?

People that rent cannot write off any of their housing expense, but homeowners do. If you have 2 people with identical financial situations and one rents while the other owns, the homeowners tax bill will be much lower due to the mortgage interest and property tax write offs. In addition, how many people would not be able to afford their homes if they didn't get the tax benefit. It would be like a 30% increase (depending on the state) in housing cost.

Homwoners also take out Home Equity Loans to pay credit card bills, buy cars, etc..... Another write off that renters don't get.

I guess I should also thank you for the "Charity".

jankemi

I'm not sure if I'm liberal enough to respond to Charlie's post but....

I agree with the liberal philosophy that we have to 'take care' of the poor & others that need help, but I certainly don't think that massive government programs are the best way to do that. I'm in state government, higher ed, and I've been in K12, and I can assure you that it is very, very rare for government agencies to function efficiently & effectively. I've always liked the idea of taxpayers spending the money to help people, but allowing competitive private groups to provide the services. An example would be health care. Don't create a huge govt agency to provide health care - instead pay insurance companies to provide the care, competitively bid, with gov't oversight & a jail term for anyone who rips of the govt.

But one must also make sure that the persons recieving the benefit have always to pay a fraction of the cost. Nothing is free to the providers, therefore nothing should ever be free to the benificiary. Reduced cost, not free.

But none of the countries problems will even be solved until we fix K12. It is absolutely broken. We could send another 50,000 kids to college next year, but they would fail anyway. We simply don't teach kids in K12. We pass them along without challenging them until they either drop out or graduate. When they graduate we send them out into the world (and to college) with a diploma and 3rd, 4th, & 5th grade reading levels.

How can we possibly expect them to be productive taxpayers if high school graduates cannot read & add fractions? They will never pay back their debt to society. They are not equipt. When they got to my 2-year Toolmaking program I started them out with fractions & decimals. I wrote all my curriculum for 5th grade reading level - and even they I lost some students because of reading level (some of them tested at grade 3). My wife starts her University students out with 'noun' and 'verb'. They are High school graduates.

The liberal says 'spend more money'. I disagree. The high school graduates who were in my technical college program we generally from relatively well-off rural and suburban districts. None were from inner cities. The K12's that graduated these students had enough money to build new buildings and fund state champoinship football teams. Money is not the problem. Apathy is.

So if we figure out how to be liberals without making the govt bigger, I'm on board.

phoenix9999

"But none of the countries problems will even be solved until we fix K12."

I completely agree. We don't have a culture of education or support. We are primarily concerned with what we are fed by television, but education and development of citizenry just doesn't make the radar like Michael Jackson and Kobe Bryant. How can this nation discuss federal program funding when the only permitted dialogue is about some guy's War on Terror?

I'm more concerned about how to get more people talking about subjects like these, than I am in determing (as charlie asked) what the "right number" is for federal spending on social programs. Policy makers in a position to pass policy on such subjects are often so wealthy that they've never experienced the benefits of such programs, or so out of touch that they've never seen the drawbacks or ineffectiveness of the same.

s2kskibum

Poks2k,

I agree with some of your points, and certainly don't expect to be (albeit sarcastically, I'm sure) "thanked..." We are all on this planet together, and, as a result, are intricately involved with each others' lives. Sometimes I just feel the symbiosis becomes a bit parasitic instead. I look at so many people who would rather blame the system than get their knuckles bruised and bloody. Specifically in our area, people complaining about not being able to afford a house, all the while spending hours and what would amount to a significant portion of a mortgage payment at the local watering hole night after night.

PokS2k

I also agree that we need to improve Education. I have always supported my local school district and voted for the budgets. I hear people say that they are voting down the budget because there is waste. Well, there may be, but guess what, when the budget goes down, the kids suffer. Waste continues and programs are cut. The way to eliminate waste is to vote out the board members.

One day an elderly couple was going door to door in the neighborhood soliciting 'no' votes for the budget. My wife asked the people why they were doing this and the answer was, our taxes are too high. My wife asked what would they like to eliminate from the budget, they didn't have a clue. They just thought they paid too much.

We had recently moved to this school district because of the schools reputation. We left an area where the school was a mess due to a lack of funding. Home values were declinging also. People don't realize that there is a connection in school quality and the price of homes.

The interesting thing is that to my knowledge school taxes are the only 'tax' that people get to vote on directly.