zeroptzero

I just seen the fatal air show crash at the Dallas air show, six people died. Seeing it on video just looks crazy to me, they say that both planes were performing a maneuver but it just looks crazy to me. All veteran pilots in vintage planes. RIP.

MsPerky

There is a theory that the larger plane was in the smaller one’s blind spot. The larger plane seems to have ventured into the smaller one’s flight path.

Morris

That theory doesn't hold water in my book. A large plane like that doesn't just dodge around willy nilly. And the way the smaller fighter was turning, the larger plane would be in his view, just looking up and a bit left, way before crossing paths. I blame the fighter pilot for not keeping his eyes on a swivel. Gene, what do you say, as a fellow pilot? Or Cosmo?

zeroptzero

Not knowing anything about flying, it just looked very odd to me, like the small plane didn't even try to avoid the impact, it appeared to be coming up to the larger plane from behind and to the side. Given the age of the pilots maybe the one guy had a medical issue ? , it just looked like the smaller plane made no attempt to avoid the larger plane in any sort of last-second attempt. We will never find out as those planes do not have recorders of any kind.

jukngene

I am not going to speculate. There are strict rules for air show performances, especially with warbirds, including altitudes and speeds. The Aircobra definitely hit the B-17, it would appear. The whole incident is a real shame, as they aren’t making these birds anywhere, not to mention the loss of life of the crews. I expect there will be even more restrictions put on future shows, as there should be.

Matt_in_VA

Based on the video there is little doubt that the AirCobra pilot was at fault. The question remains why? Perhaps as mentioned the PIC had a medical issue perhaps due to G force? It will be interesting to see what the NTSB investigation concludes.

cosmomiller

I have always been reluctant to comment early on accidents because I know, from being on accident investigations myself, that important factors may not be readily apparent to a quick first look.

However, I have watched this from several angles and I see something that indicates an error made by the P30 pilot. It is a subtle but inherently dangerous lack of flight discipline that was taught to me early on in my Naval Training and I (we) beat it into our students when I was an intermediate/advanced instructor for Naval Aviators, especially getting ready for carrier operations.

I appears the video that several of the “pursuit” aircraft (P38) were flying across the circle in relation to each other and joining up in various degrees. (The bombers seem to be fling there own daisy chain pattern.) When you are joining across a circle, you know what altitude you should be at and you must, must keep the aircraft you are joining on or referencing, on the horizon visually. I mean it appears that the lead/reference aircraft is appearing to sit on and block part of the horizon. That means you are also perfectly matched on altitude. If you don’t, and lets say he is above the horizon, you could be closing the distance and the reference aircraft is getting larger. All good? No. You can be descending into the water or ground and not even realize it until you suddenly are talking with Jesus. It has happened before and it will happen again. If they are on the horizon you are as safe as the lead. What if you cannot see the horizon? You will be on altitudes and in an air show you would not be flying this way as the weather would not permit. For real ops you will be higher.

So in this instance, the P38s were at a slightly higher altitude than the bombers flying in a particular pattern. The ill fated P38 pilot was focused on the other reference aircraft in a slight port/left turn. He let himself descend by not keeping the lead on the horizon and therefore became blind to his underside. He never saw the B17 until he hit it. He could have done a quick “level the wings peek” (perhaps smart in an air show environment with so many planes and pilots of varying skill) but if he had the lead P38 on the horizon, he could not have hit the B17.

As a true example, one of my fellow student classmates went off the carrier right before I did. The lead instructor shot up the starboard side just as the student took the cat shot so he could just look right and see the instructor to join. However, the student failed to put the lead on the horizon. He was only 60’ off the water on the cat shot but the lead’s plane was “getting bigger” (so it appears you are closing and you are) but he did not see he actually was in a slight descent at the same time. He flew into the water and was killed. The instructor saw initially the student was joining and then look ahead to clear the formation from the “boat load” of other aircraft in the pattern and so did not see Ensign Kennedy fly into the water.
Think about a level string taught between two points. That is how the flight path should be. If it is slack, you can see how the chase aircraft could descend blind under the appearance of gaining on the lead.

Formation flying takes a lot of training and time to do properly. We have been doing it for some time and the rules you fly by are written in blood.

I wonder what the pre-flight briefings were like at the air show. That could be very telling and much of the chain of events that created this tragedy might be traced to the briefings or lack of.

You are going to look at the background and training of the pilots. Are they current? Former military? If not, who trained them in formation? Drugs or alcohol involved? Mental stress issues? There are so many items to look into in a crash like this that can be very illuminating.

dlq04

Cos, I shared your comments with a ex-Air Force pilot friend. His reply: I concur with everything your friend said. When I saw the video my first reaction was that the P63 pilot never saw the B17 because he was descending in a port turn and focused to his left. Tragic accident
Tom

boltonblue

I'm not saying anyone was incorrect in the assessments.
I'm not a pilot and I have no idea what they wee trying to do but we also shouldn't forget that these aircraft were 80 years old.

jukngene

There is an online forum called pPrune (Professional Pilots Rumor NEtwork) I think this post is the best explanation for what may have happened: https://www.pprune.org/accidents-clo...l#post11330541

Of course, as Cos mentioned. until we get the full NTSB report, everything at this point is speculation, though it may be educated speculation.