Is it wise to upgrade valve springs and retainers?
12-24-2009, 10:59 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by JFUSION,Dec 24 2009, 06:37 PM
well there is nothing wrong with stock valvesprings, there's no benefit to replacing them on a stock setup. There have been plenty of cases of aftermarket retainer failures on Hondas as people think they're getting stronger products when that is not always the case. I like the idea of AP2 retainers if they are stronger. But the approach should be inspect and replace if necessary, if they are found to be in good condition what's the point of replacement. I can't comment on the cost involved as we live in different regions. Stock Honda retainers are not faulty like people seem to suggest, but they can deteriorate if subjected to conditions that they weren't intended to experience. Under normal use you shouldn't see a failure.
12-26-2009, 09:12 AM
#12
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Sorry, but your n00b is showing...
From a guy who has researched this topic, done the ap2 retainer swap, and provided info to a few other guests/members: READ THE FAQs & USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION. It is the little box in the top-right corner of your screen. Hell, just click on this link:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=548714
I'm pretty sure this isn't the 1st thread in which I've suggested this to you...
Numerous professionals and experts have weighed in on this topic. They've said their .02 and most likely won't be popping into your thread to regurgitate their opinions. If, after you've read the information painstakingly analyzed by our predecessors, you have specific questions feel free to add a post to one of the 1,000 threads in question.
From a guy who has researched this topic, done the ap2 retainer swap, and provided info to a few other guests/members: READ THE FAQs & USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION. It is the little box in the top-right corner of your screen. Hell, just click on this link:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=548714
I'm pretty sure this isn't the 1st thread in which I've suggested this to you...
Numerous professionals and experts have weighed in on this topic. They've said their .02 and most likely won't be popping into your thread to regurgitate their opinions. If, after you've read the information painstakingly analyzed by our predecessors, you have specific questions feel free to add a post to one of the 1,000 threads in question.
12-26-2009, 01:39 PM
#13
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I wasn't a fan of the AP2 retainer swap and thought the AP1s were fine until I repaired a few that had failed. I can't verify the history back to the original owner on the cars to know they had not been abused, but at least a few threads online indicate that there were a few cases where people "swear" that they never overrevved.
Given the reliability of what you read on the web, I don't think anyone can conclusively say that the AP1s are weak. What I do know for a fact, though, is that the AP2s are stronger; both in practice (I have never heard of them failing) as well as in design (they are thicker, and chamfered to relieve stress risers from sharp edges at the critical loading points).
As already suggested, I would suggest you look at the other threads on the topic. In the end I would say that your average daily driven S2k that isn't abused will have a .1% probability of the retainers failing. Plenty of people have put 100k mi or more on AP1 retainers, even those that drive the car hard and track. I'll also say, though, that since they can be replaced on-car and aren't that expensive... it's relatively cheap insurance. Especially if you track or abuse the car regularly.
As for replacing them, I've done many retainers and spring swaps on-car without ever pressurizing the cylinder. As long as you know at TDC the valve won't drop in (not an issue on just about any Honda) there is no need to pressurize the cylinder. The valve can drop a little but no more than you can simply compress the valve spring a little more to get the keepers in.
Given the reliability of what you read on the web, I don't think anyone can conclusively say that the AP1s are weak. What I do know for a fact, though, is that the AP2s are stronger; both in practice (I have never heard of them failing) as well as in design (they are thicker, and chamfered to relieve stress risers from sharp edges at the critical loading points).
As already suggested, I would suggest you look at the other threads on the topic. In the end I would say that your average daily driven S2k that isn't abused will have a .1% probability of the retainers failing. Plenty of people have put 100k mi or more on AP1 retainers, even those that drive the car hard and track. I'll also say, though, that since they can be replaced on-car and aren't that expensive... it's relatively cheap insurance. Especially if you track or abuse the car regularly.
As for replacing them, I've done many retainers and spring swaps on-car without ever pressurizing the cylinder. As long as you know at TDC the valve won't drop in (not an issue on just about any Honda) there is no need to pressurize the cylinder. The valve can drop a little but no more than you can simply compress the valve spring a little more to get the keepers in.
12-26-2009, 03:12 PM
#14
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Once again, you have already been told to just update an existing thread. This is the sixth or seventh thread you have started about the same car that you are "thinking" about buying. All of the threads have also been a single word search topic. Please stop cluttering Under The Hood.
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12-26-2009, 03:19 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Skatethesea,Dec 26 2009, 04:12 PM
Once again, you have already been told to just update an existing thread. This is the sixth or seventh thread you have started about the same car that you are "thinking" about buying. All of the threads have also been a single word search topic. Please stop cluttering Under The Hood.
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post in it an start worrying about your own life
12-26-2009, 04:42 PM
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haha. okay bro. I am not trying to start internet beef with you. But you will get better responses from just updating. I have had pulley size, injector size, fuel rail, transmission, and head work all on the same thread, just updated the title. Just trying to help you out. Peace
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12-26-2009, 05:22 PM
#17
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Marcucci,
I'm aware of a couple of cases where the owner knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that their car was NEVER overrevved. Despite the fact that they bought the car second-hand with tens of thousands of miles on the odometer. They KNOW it was never overrrevved. They also know that the clutch was never dumped on their car, etc.
Are there people who dropped valves on AP1's that had indeed never been overrevved? I'm sure there are some. But not nearly as many as the Internet would lead you to believe.
I'm aware of a couple of cases where the owner knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that their car was NEVER overrevved. Despite the fact that they bought the car second-hand with tens of thousands of miles on the odometer. They KNOW it was never overrrevved. They also know that the clutch was never dumped on their car, etc.
Are there people who dropped valves on AP1's that had indeed never been overrevved? I'm sure there are some. But not nearly as many as the Internet would lead you to believe.
12-26-2009, 07:03 PM
#18
Here's my 2-week old 2-cent's worth:
I ordered a set of new AP2 retainers and keepers fro my AP1 just as a preventive maintenance issue.
6 weeks ago, I pull valve cover, look over the intake and ex. valves. none looked sunk. But it was hard to tell, without taking off the valve rockers.
2 weeks ago I pulled the cover and the rockers, with AP2 stuff in hand, borrowed compressor, etc. One (1) valve looks like it was lower than the rest on the intake side.
After removing and replacing all the retainers and keepers on the intake side, I inspected the retainers.
7 (seven!) of 8 had cracks in them!!! One (the noticeable one) had a crack so bad, it warped the retainer slightly! It was a miracle of God for me to decide to do it, just for kicks, as a routine preventive maintenance. 7 out of 8 intake, cracks, from a big crack across the bottom in one, to 3-4 multiple hairline, barely visible, cracks in the others. Only one intake retainer was good.
Just do it. Takes a few couple of hours to get to actual swap. Then maybe 1.5 hours for the actual swap. then gotta put the valve rockers back on, adjust valves (about 3 hours). button everything up, another maybe hour. I just did it 2 weeks ago, I remember, boy was it worth it!!!
I ordered a set of new AP2 retainers and keepers fro my AP1 just as a preventive maintenance issue.
6 weeks ago, I pull valve cover, look over the intake and ex. valves. none looked sunk. But it was hard to tell, without taking off the valve rockers.
2 weeks ago I pulled the cover and the rockers, with AP2 stuff in hand, borrowed compressor, etc. One (1) valve looks like it was lower than the rest on the intake side.
After removing and replacing all the retainers and keepers on the intake side, I inspected the retainers.
7 (seven!) of 8 had cracks in them!!! One (the noticeable one) had a crack so bad, it warped the retainer slightly! It was a miracle of God for me to decide to do it, just for kicks, as a routine preventive maintenance. 7 out of 8 intake, cracks, from a big crack across the bottom in one, to 3-4 multiple hairline, barely visible, cracks in the others. Only one intake retainer was good.
Just do it. Takes a few couple of hours to get to actual swap. Then maybe 1.5 hours for the actual swap. then gotta put the valve rockers back on, adjust valves (about 3 hours). button everything up, another maybe hour. I just did it 2 weeks ago, I remember, boy was it worth it!!!
12-27-2009, 06:11 AM
#19
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How much were the ap2 retainers? How much should one expect to pay to have Honda swap out the ap1 retainers with ap2 retainers? Do you need to do springs as well at the same time?
