Why are our wheel studs so WEAK????
06-13-2002, 11:33 AM
#31
I used to autocross a '91 Integra, and for the 1st couple years, I didn't use anti-seize on the lugs. None of them broke off, but a couple of them started to loose their threads due to constant wheel swaps. I took the advice of a tire shop guy (who also autocrossed), and started using anti-seize on them. I just cleaned up the damaged threads, used anti-seize, and kept on autocrossing. I put another 80K miles on that car with the same studs.
06-13-2002, 12:16 PM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
Originally posted by jerrypeterson
You can work single studs in there without removing the bearing, but if you need to replace two or more its *bad news bears.*
You can work single studs in there without removing the bearing, but if you need to replace two or more its *bad news bears.*
06-13-2002, 02:20 PM
#36
Still a good thread, with lots of info, but it's starting to degenerate -- let's see if we can save it.
Summary of lube/anti-seize argument:
1) Everyone agrees that lubricating the bearing surface, or seat, can result in higher-than-expected, and possibly dangerous, tension in the lug.
2) Stan (E30M3) and Destiny2002 contend that the same risk is present even if ONLY the lug threads are lubed, and the seat is left dry. cdelena contends that lubing the threads causes negligible increase in lug tension, and therefore recommends anti-seize on the threads for the practical purpose of preventing corrosion.
So the question is:
Assuming the SEAT is DRY, and the THREADS are CLEAN, can we definitively state the effect of thread lube on lug tension?
The floor is open.
Summary of lube/anti-seize argument:
1) Everyone agrees that lubricating the bearing surface, or seat, can result in higher-than-expected, and possibly dangerous, tension in the lug.
2) Stan (E30M3) and Destiny2002 contend that the same risk is present even if ONLY the lug threads are lubed, and the seat is left dry. cdelena contends that lubing the threads causes negligible increase in lug tension, and therefore recommends anti-seize on the threads for the practical purpose of preventing corrosion.
So the question is:
Assuming the SEAT is DRY, and the THREADS are CLEAN, can we definitively state the effect of thread lube on lug tension?
The floor is open.
06-13-2002, 02:42 PM
#37
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>>>Assuming the SEAT is DRY, and the THREADS are CLEAN, can we definitively state the effect of thread lube on lug tension?<<<
Why fix it if it aint broke? Install fasteners to factory torque using factory recc'd lube (none) using OEM or other quality wheels = the best way IMO. Try some web searches - it's a pretty well explored concept. The 14 year old OEM street bolts on my E30 M3 have no corrosion on them. What exactly is the advantage of varying from an approach that works on that old car - none. Could S2000's be prone to corrosion of the wheel fasteners? Is that the reason for deviating from Honda's suggestions? I dunno, but corrosion is clearly not good either. Rust is a stress riser which means that the area is locally weakened in case you were unaware.
Also, if a stud fails, I wouldn't just replace the broken one. But that's just me. The remaining studs, especially those on either side of the one that broke experience heavy loads in that event and it's a good idea to change them too. Truck shops do that all the time - SOP. That's why I suggest to replace all of them if some crummy shop overtorqued the wheels and you have a failure.
For BMWs a set of wheel bolts is free with new wheels and about 30-40 dollars otherwise. Fancy racing studs from BBS are around 90-100 bux. And they are double threaded studs so they install without hub removal - EZ. It's just not that much moola in that instance to fuss about. For the S2K, it's more involved so my suggestion is to use Honda's approach.
Personally I use an impact wrench for removal. It's a relatively low torque self-contained-battery operated unit by Snap-On. And I tighten to < half torque in a star pattern the same way after getting things seated. Never force anything. Then I hand torque to spec. Never use the torque wrench for loosening and store it loosened up. A number of other tricks, but this is a live message board format!
Stan
Why fix it if it aint broke? Install fasteners to factory torque using factory recc'd lube (none) using OEM or other quality wheels = the best way IMO. Try some web searches - it's a pretty well explored concept. The 14 year old OEM street bolts on my E30 M3 have no corrosion on them. What exactly is the advantage of varying from an approach that works on that old car - none. Could S2000's be prone to corrosion of the wheel fasteners? Is that the reason for deviating from Honda's suggestions? I dunno, but corrosion is clearly not good either. Rust is a stress riser which means that the area is locally weakened in case you were unaware.
Also, if a stud fails, I wouldn't just replace the broken one. But that's just me. The remaining studs, especially those on either side of the one that broke experience heavy loads in that event and it's a good idea to change them too. Truck shops do that all the time - SOP. That's why I suggest to replace all of them if some crummy shop overtorqued the wheels and you have a failure.
For BMWs a set of wheel bolts is free with new wheels and about 30-40 dollars otherwise. Fancy racing studs from BBS are around 90-100 bux. And they are double threaded studs so they install without hub removal - EZ. It's just not that much moola in that instance to fuss about. For the S2K, it's more involved so my suggestion is to use Honda's approach.
Personally I use an impact wrench for removal. It's a relatively low torque self-contained-battery operated unit by Snap-On. And I tighten to < half torque in a star pattern the same way after getting things seated. Never force anything. Then I hand torque to spec. Never use the torque wrench for loosening and store it loosened up. A number of other tricks, but this is a live message board format!
Stan
06-13-2002, 05:02 PM
#38
Originally posted by jerrypeterson
You can work single studs in there without removing the bearing, but if you need to replace two or more its *bad news bears.*
You can work single studs in there without removing the bearing, but if you need to replace two or more its *bad news bears.*
06-13-2002, 05:06 PM
#40
Registered User
Searched a little and found some interesting links on the subject:
http://www.autotruck.net/ms/archives/2001/...201/0201ans.asp
Dear Answerman: If I lubricate lug nut threads, does it make it more likely I may overtorque them?
J.F., Bend, OR
Answerman: Yes. Torque values listed in shop manuals are almost always meant to be used with clean, dry threads.
At Bendix, we recommend against using lubricants on lug nut threads, as do many vehicle manufacturers. We have two reasons:
1. Each lubricant may have a different effect on torque values
2. Heat may cause all but special-purpose lubricants designed for brake applications to melt and run, possibly contaminating pads or shoes and/or rotors or drums.
If you insist on lubricating lug threads, please be sparing and make sure to compensate for the increased torque likely to result. For example, one lubricant manufacturer recommends torquing nuts to only 85 percent of the factory specification when using their nickel-based anti-seize compound on threads. ms
http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Whe...0Steel%20Wheels
The bolt threads should be clean and free of rust. While it helps to lubricate the threads with light penetrating oil, never use a lubricant that leaves a heavy oil film or that contains a friction modifier. Friction modifiers reduce the friction between the lug nut and bolt and cause false torque readings.
http://www.autotruck.net/ms/archives/2001/...201/0201ans.asp
Dear Answerman: If I lubricate lug nut threads, does it make it more likely I may overtorque them?
J.F., Bend, OR
Answerman: Yes. Torque values listed in shop manuals are almost always meant to be used with clean, dry threads.
At Bendix, we recommend against using lubricants on lug nut threads, as do many vehicle manufacturers. We have two reasons:
1. Each lubricant may have a different effect on torque values
2. Heat may cause all but special-purpose lubricants designed for brake applications to melt and run, possibly contaminating pads or shoes and/or rotors or drums.
If you insist on lubricating lug threads, please be sparing and make sure to compensate for the increased torque likely to result. For example, one lubricant manufacturer recommends torquing nuts to only 85 percent of the factory specification when using their nickel-based anti-seize compound on threads. ms
http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Whe...0Steel%20Wheels
The bolt threads should be clean and free of rust. While it helps to lubricate the threads with light penetrating oil, never use a lubricant that leaves a heavy oil film or that contains a friction modifier. Friction modifiers reduce the friction between the lug nut and bolt and cause false torque readings.