What is hypoid gear oil?
12-22-2010, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cdelena,Apr 17 2002, 03:48 AM
You are right. Designing gears to quietly transmit high power at right angles takes careful design. (BTW, M1 gear oil is ok).
"Final drive gear oils undertook a complete change in technology when the Gleason Gear Company in the USA introduced the concept of the "hypoid gear".
Prior to this development final drive gears would have even been straight bevel or spiral bevel. In this type of design the gear teeth roll together and could be lubricated by the normally available gear oils of the time.
The other gear design was the worm gear in which the teeth slide in contact, and to control wear the worm gear was made of bronze and the worm shaft of steel. With the comparatively low torque of engines in the 1920's this type of design could again be lubricated by normal heavy oil.
With the hypoid gear first adopted by Packard in 1926 the all steel gear sets transmitted the torque through teeth that both roll and slide and this proved to be too difficult for additives to enhance the film strength or extreme pressure and non ferrous characteristics of lubricants. These early (E.P) or hypoid gear oils used such chemistry lead naphanates or lead soap to improve the film strength. With ever increasing torque to transmit and decreasing gear size, the loading of the gear teeth and thereby the type of chemistry used has undergone many changes.
The early hypoid gear axles of the '30s,'40s & '50s still used bronze components such as differential side gear bushing in their design. The early hypoid gear oils were non-corrosive to brass and bronze but the modern gear oil oil chemistry needed to suit today's design and loading may not be as friendly to non-ferrous materials which are not present in modern car final drives."
"Final drive gear oils undertook a complete change in technology when the Gleason Gear Company in the USA introduced the concept of the "hypoid gear".
Prior to this development final drive gears would have even been straight bevel or spiral bevel. In this type of design the gear teeth roll together and could be lubricated by the normally available gear oils of the time.
The other gear design was the worm gear in which the teeth slide in contact, and to control wear the worm gear was made of bronze and the worm shaft of steel. With the comparatively low torque of engines in the 1920's this type of design could again be lubricated by normal heavy oil.
With the hypoid gear first adopted by Packard in 1926 the all steel gear sets transmitted the torque through teeth that both roll and slide and this proved to be too difficult for additives to enhance the film strength or extreme pressure and non ferrous characteristics of lubricants. These early (E.P) or hypoid gear oils used such chemistry lead naphanates or lead soap to improve the film strength. With ever increasing torque to transmit and decreasing gear size, the loading of the gear teeth and thereby the type of chemistry used has undergone many changes.
The early hypoid gear axles of the '30s,'40s & '50s still used bronze components such as differential side gear bushing in their design. The early hypoid gear oils were non-corrosive to brass and bronze but the modern gear oil oil chemistry needed to suit today's design and loading may not be as friendly to non-ferrous materials which are not present in modern car final drives."
I would not use Mobil 1 gear oil because it put a small piece of metal on my drain bolt magnet after a 6k oil change interval. This may have had nothing to do with the gear oil, but I have made the switch to Amsoil 75w110 as recommended by other forum members.
12-23-2010, 01:38 AM
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Bror Jace Posted on Dec 23 2010, 01:02 AM
As far as I know there is NO Honda Automotive SAE 90 GL-5 hypoid gear oil.
Honda Marine has the right stuff, for the hypoid gears used in outboard motors.
Its one of the few single grade 90 weights.
Most will think SAE 75W-90 is the same as SAE 90 and they will use that.
Combine this with the SAE J306 specification change (added SAE 110, etc) and you may have found your answer to the "factory oil = whatever the dealer puts in" being shot ater 10k-15k miles.
The original Honda recommendation of GL-5 or GL-6 IMO points out Honda was aware of the high load on the diff oil, as the GL-6 spec was intended for high offset (read s2000man's post) hypoid gears.
I see it's rated for GL-4/GL-5. That's good. I hope it holds up better than the stock/factory oil that Honda uses in our cars. That crud is shot after 10,000-15,000 miles.
Honda Marine has the right stuff, for the hypoid gears used in outboard motors.
Its one of the few single grade 90 weights.
Most will think SAE 75W-90 is the same as SAE 90 and they will use that.
Combine this with the SAE J306 specification change (added SAE 110, etc) and you may have found your answer to the "factory oil = whatever the dealer puts in" being shot ater 10k-15k miles.
The original Honda recommendation of GL-5 or GL-6 IMO points out Honda was aware of the high load on the diff oil, as the GL-6 spec was intended for high offset (read s2000man's post) hypoid gears.
12-23-2010, 06:22 PM
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SpitfireS, do you know if the diffs are shipped dry from Japan? I'm assuming they are factory filled with oil and it is not a dealer PDI (pre-delivery inspection) item.
Chevron 80W-90 has a couple thousand miles on it so far ... all is quiet ... but I'm still gonna drain it this summer after I put a couple more on it ... want to flush all the junk that was in there when I drain the factory fluid around 15,500 miles. Was pretty hideous ... and the previous owner was a 50+ year old woman who could barely handle the car.
Chevron 80W-90 has a couple thousand miles on it so far ... all is quiet ... but I'm still gonna drain it this summer after I put a couple more on it ... want to flush all the junk that was in there when I drain the factory fluid around 15,500 miles. Was pretty hideous ... and the previous owner was a 50+ year old woman who could barely handle the car.
12-24-2010, 05:51 AM
#14
Originally Posted by starchland,Dec 22 2010, 12:33 AM
honda motorcycles division produces a gear oil labelled 'hypoid gear oil'
http://cart.parkwaypowerhouse.com/product_...products_id=254
http://cart.parkwaypowerhouse.com/product_...products_id=254
12-24-2010, 07:30 AM
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GL-4, GL-5, and GL-6 are all designed for hypoid gears. Honda specified straight 90w gear oil over ten years ago. I am from the school of thought that believes you shouldn't dig up an old viscosity just because it was specified when the car came out. You don't use motor oil from the 60s in a classic car because new formulations are better. Likewise, I would rather use newer formulations from R&D oriented brands like Amsoil, regardless of stated viscosity (75w90, 75w110), than use straight grade or 80w90 from brands that haven't been reformulated in years.
12-24-2010, 10:17 AM
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Bror Jace Posted on Dec 24 2010, 04:22 AM
New cars arriving from Japan are driven off the boat so I assume they have all the fluids.
15k miles on original fluid, in a diff that's wearing-in, I mean, you have to take the wear-in into account as well I guess.
Maybe she was doing clutch dumps and drifting (uncontrolled 
)every time she went for a drive?
flyingtoaster Posted on Dec 24 2010, 05:30 PM
In theory.
The GL-4 can be used for:
(quotes from an API publication)
IMO intended for gearboxes with final drives, like you see in most front wheel drive cars today.
The GL-5 spec is different:
Much more like a stand alone diff in a sportscar 
GL-6:
In 1999 Honda thought that would fit the S2000 diff 
And it still does IMO.
The big advantage of a single grade is that it doesn't need any viscosity index improver (VII) to make it flow when the oil gets cold.
Those VII have improved a lot over the years (no doubt) and they don't shear down as much but if it ain't there it can't shear
Besides, a straight SAE 110 of today (the SAE 90 before 2005) is not the same formulation of 1999 (or 1960)
Take the SAE J306 spec change into account (June 2005) and you'll find modern 75W-90 gear oils are a lot thinner (and have less EP rating) than an old school SAE 90.
And its the EP rating you need (see the API GL-5/6 quote)
SpitfireS, do you know if the diffs are shipped dry from Japan? I'm assuming they are factory filled with oil and it is not a dealer PDI (pre-delivery inspection) item.
15k miles on original fluid, in a diff that's wearing-in, I mean, you have to take the wear-in into account as well I guess.
and the previous owner was a 50+ year old woman who could barely handle the car
)every time she went for a drive?flyingtoaster Posted on Dec 24 2010, 05:30 PM
GL-4, GL-5, and GL-6 are all designed for hypoid gears.
The GL-4 can be used for:
(quotes from an API publication)
axles with spiral bevel gears operating under moderate to severe conditions of speed and load or axles with hypoid gears operating under moderate speeds and loads.
The GL-5 spec is different:
The designation API GL-5 denotes lubricants intended for gears, particularly hypoid gears, in axles operating under various combinations of high-speed/shock load and low-speed/high-torque conditions
GL-6:
The designation API GL-6 denotes lubricants intended for gears designed with a very high pinion offset. Such designs typically require protection from gear scoring in excess of that provided by API GL-5 gear oils.
And it still does IMO.
I am from the school of thought that believes you shouldn't dig up an old viscosity just because it was specified when the car came out. You don't use motor oil from the 60s in a classic car because new formulations are better.
Those VII have improved a lot over the years (no doubt) and they don't shear down as much but if it ain't there it can't shear
Besides, a straight SAE 110 of today (the SAE 90 before 2005) is not the same formulation of 1999 (or 1960)
Take the SAE J306 spec change into account (June 2005) and you'll find modern 75W-90 gear oils are a lot thinner (and have less EP rating) than an old school SAE 90.
And its the EP rating you need (see the API GL-5/6 quote)
12-24-2010, 11:08 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by Bror Jace,Dec 23 2010, 10:22 PM
Was pretty hideous ... and the previous owner was a 50+ year old woman who could barely handle the car.
Did the lady you bought it from look like any of these???
http://node1.topgear.com/uk/videos/grannies-donuts-1
12-25-2010, 07:24 PM
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No, 50 isn't that old ... but the car was pretty gently driven. The original tires still look very good.
And most telling of all, the woman said she prefers her Miata.
And most telling of all, the woman said she prefers her Miata.
12-26-2010, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Dec 24 2010, 11:17 AM
Bror Jace Posted on Dec 24 2010, 04:22 AM
New cars arriving from Japan are driven off the boat so I assume they have all the fluids.
15k miles on original fluid, in a diff that's wearing-in, I mean, you have to take the wear-in into account as well I guess.
Maybe she was doing clutch dumps and drifting (uncontrolled )every time she went for a drive?
flyingtoaster Posted on Dec 24 2010, 05:30 PM
In theory.
The GL-4 can be used for:
(quotes from an API publication)
IMO intended for gearboxes with final drives, like you see in most front wheel drive cars today.
The GL-5 spec is different:
Much more like a stand alone diff in a sportscar
GL-6:
In 1999 Honda thought that would fit the S2000 diff
And it still does IMO.
The big advantage of a single grade is that it doesn't need any viscosity index improver (VII) to make it flow when the oil gets cold.
Those VII have improved a lot over the years (no doubt) and they don't shear down as much but if it ain't there it can't shear
Besides, a straight SAE 110 of today (the SAE 90 before 2005) is not the same formulation of 1999 (or 1960)
Take the SAE J306 spec change into account (June 2005) and you'll find modern 75W-90 gear oils are a lot thinner (and have less EP rating) than an old school SAE 90.
And its the EP rating you need (see the API GL-5/6 quote)
New cars arriving from Japan are driven off the boat so I assume they have all the fluids.
15k miles on original fluid, in a diff that's wearing-in, I mean, you have to take the wear-in into account as well I guess.
Maybe she was doing clutch dumps and drifting (uncontrolled
)every time she went for a drive?flyingtoaster Posted on Dec 24 2010, 05:30 PM
In theory.
The GL-4 can be used for:
(quotes from an API publication)
IMO intended for gearboxes with final drives, like you see in most front wheel drive cars today.
The GL-5 spec is different:
Much more like a stand alone diff in a sportscar
GL-6:
In 1999 Honda thought that would fit the S2000 diff
And it still does IMO.
The big advantage of a single grade is that it doesn't need any viscosity index improver (VII) to make it flow when the oil gets cold.
Those VII have improved a lot over the years (no doubt) and they don't shear down as much but if it ain't there it can't shear
Besides, a straight SAE 110 of today (the SAE 90 before 2005) is not the same formulation of 1999 (or 1960)
Take the SAE J306 spec change into account (June 2005) and you'll find modern 75W-90 gear oils are a lot thinner (and have less EP rating) than an old school SAE 90.
And its the EP rating you need (see the API GL-5/6 quote)
