What Is Honda's Warrantee Obligation?
09-06-2003, 05:03 AM
#21
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By all rights our cars should be able to operate at 9k for 36 thousand miles without any falures......that woudl cost alot in gas though! 
as long as your not into the redline there is no abuse....clutch dumps aside anyway....honda needs to cover parts that go bad, a thrown rod is not something that can really be a persons fault....i mean it is not like they can just take the rod out and play with it or adjust it it is a set part in an engine....i am failing to see hondas case in that one
as long as your not into the redline there is no abuse....clutch dumps aside anyway....honda needs to cover parts that go bad, a thrown rod is not something that can really be a persons fault....i mean it is not like they can just take the rod out and play with it or adjust it it is a set part in an engine....i am failing to see hondas case in that one
09-06-2003, 05:12 AM
#22
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As I see it Honda's case is that I over revved the engine. Period. The DE/Autoc contributed or accelerated the rod failure but was not the primary cause.
Pretty convienent... S2000 engines don't explode from driving them hard. Just from "over revving!"
Pretty convienent... S2000 engines don't explode from driving them hard. Just from "over revving!"
11-07-2003, 01:13 PM
#23
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AutoX is more likely to fail a clutch then occasional dumps. Think of it, turn after turn, downshift after downshift that clutch is being released as fast as possible to maintain acceleration and RPM max. I myself never autoX'ed. I drove mine up to Honda claimed par of 0-60 in 5.5 etc... I have been through a clutch, a trans a rear end and now a ticking engine, which honda will not scope or do anything more then check the valves to see what is wrong without charging me a fee. They have not warrantied anything. I have a court date pending, for breach of contract. I Have yet to see any type of call or contact from Honda directly since I refinanced through my bank and paid them the pay off amount for my car. Which also just re-enforces the argument about money. I invite anyone with ANY problems with thier car visit
http://nhtsa.com/
for this is the only site that you can take testimonys and the courts let them be held as evidence and argument. Just a thought to leave you folks on. I think we all missed the point of Honda and we were all quite fooled. Honda has always been a "dependable, economy car" type of manufacturer. If we wanted a sports car I fear we shouldve looked to a company with not only more technical experience in it (cause I have heard Honda Racing blows more drivetrains then any other franchise) and more importantly we shouldve looked at thier lack of knowledge in how to handle a sports car client. I for one have learned from my mistakes. I will not purchase another Honda. Despite thier revisions the 04' S2K. I wish you all the best of luck. My email is Davey7337@aol.com if anyone needs any aid of documentation for anything. I have a 150 page booklet of my ordeals with Honda its quite extensive Good day.
http://nhtsa.com/
for this is the only site that you can take testimonys and the courts let them be held as evidence and argument. Just a thought to leave you folks on. I think we all missed the point of Honda and we were all quite fooled. Honda has always been a "dependable, economy car" type of manufacturer. If we wanted a sports car I fear we shouldve looked to a company with not only more technical experience in it (cause I have heard Honda Racing blows more drivetrains then any other franchise) and more importantly we shouldve looked at thier lack of knowledge in how to handle a sports car client. I for one have learned from my mistakes. I will not purchase another Honda. Despite thier revisions the 04' S2K. I wish you all the best of luck. My email is Davey7337@aol.com if anyone needs any aid of documentation for anything. I have a 150 page booklet of my ordeals with Honda its quite extensive
Good day.
11-07-2003, 01:48 PM
#24
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Interesting discussion.
It has me thinking, because I just got a new clutch after suffering a blown-out throwout bearing at 14,850 miles. Didn't cost me a cent. Why? I suspect it's because I enjoy a good relationship with the dealer..I know I'm lucky, but it doesn't guarantee things will always be so good for me.
I suspect the warranty means whatever the dealership and/or Honda District Manager wants it to.
And to stray further -- is this a particular problem with a company like Honda, known for reliability? Honda's made its rep on never-break cars like Accords and Civics. The S2000 is a whole other ballgame. Not to say it's unreliable, but when things do go wrong, does Honda know how to properly handle it?
Visiting other forums, I've noticed differences. Take Porsche, for instance. Many posters have written about oil leaks on their Boxsters. It seems Porsche has for the most part handled them quickly and efficiently, even replacing engines. It seems the company just anticipates the problem and deals with it. Now, that doesn't say much about their manufacturing process (no flames, please, I love Porsches) -- but it speaks well of their customer relations.
This post got long...good luck to everyone trying to resolve their problems. I may be among you someday.
It has me thinking, because I just got a new clutch after suffering a blown-out throwout bearing at 14,850 miles. Didn't cost me a cent. Why? I suspect it's because I enjoy a good relationship with the dealer..I know I'm lucky, but it doesn't guarantee things will always be so good for me.
I suspect the warranty means whatever the dealership and/or Honda District Manager wants it to.
And to stray further -- is this a particular problem with a company like Honda, known for reliability? Honda's made its rep on never-break cars like Accords and Civics. The S2000 is a whole other ballgame. Not to say it's unreliable, but when things do go wrong, does Honda know how to properly handle it?
Visiting other forums, I've noticed differences. Take Porsche, for instance. Many posters have written about oil leaks on their Boxsters. It seems Porsche has for the most part handled them quickly and efficiently, even replacing engines. It seems the company just anticipates the problem and deals with it. Now, that doesn't say much about their manufacturing process (no flames, please, I love Porsches) -- but it speaks well of their customer relations.
This post got long...good luck to everyone trying to resolve their problems. I may be among you someday.
11-07-2003, 02:37 PM
#25
Thread Starter
Originally posted by Helios
[...]I suspect the warranty means whatever the dealership and/or Honda District Manager wants it to.[...]
[...]but it speaks well of their customer relations.[...]
[...]I suspect the warranty means whatever the dealership and/or Honda District Manager wants it to.[...]
[...]but it speaks well of their customer relations.[...]
It's a conundrum: you have a car that's built to be tracked and driven hard, but a warrantee that's voided (if Honda wants it that way) if you explore those limits.
Porsche has been building sports cards for decades, and I think they have the corporate mindset correct.
It's a shame for us, isn't it.
11-07-2003, 03:56 PM
#26
Originally posted by Helios
Interesting discussion.
It has me thinking, because I just got a new clutch after suffering a blown-out throwout bearing at 14,850 miles. Didn't cost me a cent. Why? I suspect it's because I enjoy a good relationship with the dealer...
Interesting discussion.
It has me thinking, because I just got a new clutch after suffering a blown-out throwout bearing at 14,850 miles. Didn't cost me a cent. Why? I suspect it's because I enjoy a good relationship with the dealer...
It really is a mindset as pointed out here, and one that makes buying a sports car from AHM less attractive every year.
11-07-2003, 09:35 PM
#27
Did someone call for a lawyer?
To be excluded from the warranty, the damage must be "due to" the racing/competition event. So, what does this mean? Well, it isn't limited in time. By that I mean the failure doesn't have to happen at the track. It also doesn't mean that participating in the event automatically voids the warranty. There must be a connection between the racing event and the damage. What is the correct approach to such a situation? Well, if you were represented by Legal Bill, here's what we would argue.
1. The intent of the exclusion was to exclude track damage like accidents and on track failures. If the car went through the event without incident, it isn't "due to" the event no matter when it happens.
2. If Honda thinks the failure is "due to" racing, they have to prove it. It isn't enough to say "You raced, the car broke, the exclusion applies" Honda has to prove the failure is race related. Lets think about this. Even if your car breaks at the track, that doesn't mean the failure was "due to" the event. If defective materials or workmanship manifest a failure at a track event, it is still a failure due to materials and workmanship and not from racing.
3. We are the consumer. Help us judge! This means that the contract should be strictly construed against Honda. Why? Because it is a contract of adhesion, which means you had to take it if you wanted to buy the car. Think about this. did any of you go to the dealer and say "hey, I want to change this warranty language?" No, of course not. You got the warranty they wrote, take it or leave it. The court recognizes that such contracts are not arm's length agreements and if the contract can be reasonably interpreted in favor of the owner it will be so construed.
4. We have an expert. Yes folks, I'm afraid we need one because they will have one at trial and if we don't, they will probably win. If we win however, 'ol Legal Bill petitions the court to award us the costs of the expert AND the attorney's fees!! Our expert will examine the failed component and have an opinion, that the expert can support to a reasonable degree of engineering certainty, that the failure was to defective materials and workmanship. If my expert will not support our case, I will not file suit.
Those are the basics kids. I understand why some of you have decided to just lie to the dealer if something happens at an event. I'm sorry it has come to this.
Oh, by the way, I don't think Honda should be able to avoid repair of ANYTHING during the warranty period if the owner wasn't abusing the car in some way. Yes, I do think racing is abuse, but I think that abuse must cause the failure.
To be excluded from the warranty, the damage must be "due to" the racing/competition event. So, what does this mean? Well, it isn't limited in time. By that I mean the failure doesn't have to happen at the track. It also doesn't mean that participating in the event automatically voids the warranty. There must be a connection between the racing event and the damage. What is the correct approach to such a situation? Well, if you were represented by Legal Bill, here's what we would argue.
1. The intent of the exclusion was to exclude track damage like accidents and on track failures. If the car went through the event without incident, it isn't "due to" the event no matter when it happens.
2. If Honda thinks the failure is "due to" racing, they have to prove it. It isn't enough to say "You raced, the car broke, the exclusion applies" Honda has to prove the failure is race related. Lets think about this. Even if your car breaks at the track, that doesn't mean the failure was "due to" the event. If defective materials or workmanship manifest a failure at a track event, it is still a failure due to materials and workmanship and not from racing.
3. We are the consumer. Help us judge! This means that the contract should be strictly construed against Honda. Why? Because it is a contract of adhesion, which means you had to take it if you wanted to buy the car. Think about this. did any of you go to the dealer and say "hey, I want to change this warranty language?" No, of course not. You got the warranty they wrote, take it or leave it. The court recognizes that such contracts are not arm's length agreements and if the contract can be reasonably interpreted in favor of the owner it will be so construed.
4. We have an expert. Yes folks, I'm afraid we need one because they will have one at trial and if we don't, they will probably win. If we win however, 'ol Legal Bill petitions the court to award us the costs of the expert AND the attorney's fees!! Our expert will examine the failed component and have an opinion, that the expert can support to a reasonable degree of engineering certainty, that the failure was to defective materials and workmanship. If my expert will not support our case, I will not file suit.
Those are the basics kids. I understand why some of you have decided to just lie to the dealer if something happens at an event. I'm sorry it has come to this.
Oh, by the way, I don't think Honda should be able to avoid repair of ANYTHING during the warranty period if the owner wasn't abusing the car in some way. Yes, I do think racing is abuse, but I think that abuse must cause the failure.
11-08-2003, 04:04 AM
#28
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I have been on this board since its inception and have read many tales of woe regarding customer treatment for warrantee claims. I've also observed the way my local dealership handles warrantee claims. The cases seem to fall out into 4 categories:
1) People that have legitimate warrantee claims that are treated fairly by their dealer and are happy with the resolution of their issues.
2) People that have legitimate warrantee claims that are treated poorly by their dealer and have an undesireable resolution to their issues.
3) People that do not have a legitimate warrantee claim, but are given a "good will" fix.
4) People that do not have a legitimate claim and are denied warrantee coverage, but then bitch and moan about it.
The main problem that I perceive is that the Honda dealer network does not supply accurate, consistent diagnoses for mechanical problems. It often frustrates owners (who may know more about the car than the mechanics) and supplies an inconsistent message to enthusiasts such as ourselves. However, I have also observed instances where owners are in denial about how they have contributed to a mechanical failure.
I have been in category 1 and had several warrantee fixes performed on my car with minimal hassle from Honda. Many of the cases in Barry's #4 cylinder failure thread contain instances of category 1, but also include cases where the claim was initially denied and only later covered after a lot of hassle. I know of one case personally where an engine was being run in a spirited manner, but never over-revved. It developed the dreaded tapping noise and the owner was told the engine failed due to lack of oil. When confronted with the fact that the oil was full and checked by a professional mechanic a few hundred miles before the failure, Honda eventually warranteed the repair, but never disclosed the cause of the failure to the owner.
Scott's case is in category 2 and as mentioned above, hinges on what I consider to be the main failure at Honda - lack of consistent, accurate diagnosis. I've seen several cases of over-revved engined fixed under "good will" when the evidence was clear that the car had been abused; burned out clutch, bent valves and impact markes on the tops of the pistons. In my opinion, Scott's engine was never abused and the reason for warrantee denial are not supported by the physical evidence. I believe he will prevail in court. As punishment, I suggest that each of the Honda decision-makers in this process be subject to "10 minutes of terror" in Scott's car at a driver's education event. They will either vomit, or be so excited by the experience that they will run out and buy S2000s themselves and become addicted to the "go-fast crack pipe"
.
1) People that have legitimate warrantee claims that are treated fairly by their dealer and are happy with the resolution of their issues.
2) People that have legitimate warrantee claims that are treated poorly by their dealer and have an undesireable resolution to their issues.
3) People that do not have a legitimate warrantee claim, but are given a "good will" fix.
4) People that do not have a legitimate claim and are denied warrantee coverage, but then bitch and moan about it.
The main problem that I perceive is that the Honda dealer network does not supply accurate, consistent diagnoses for mechanical problems. It often frustrates owners (who may know more about the car than the mechanics) and supplies an inconsistent message to enthusiasts such as ourselves. However, I have also observed instances where owners are in denial about how they have contributed to a mechanical failure.
I have been in category 1 and had several warrantee fixes performed on my car with minimal hassle from Honda. Many of the cases in Barry's #4 cylinder failure thread contain instances of category 1, but also include cases where the claim was initially denied and only later covered after a lot of hassle. I know of one case personally where an engine was being run in a spirited manner, but never over-revved. It developed the dreaded tapping noise and the owner was told the engine failed due to lack of oil. When confronted with the fact that the oil was full and checked by a professional mechanic a few hundred miles before the failure, Honda eventually warranteed the repair, but never disclosed the cause of the failure to the owner.
Scott's case is in category 2 and as mentioned above, hinges on what I consider to be the main failure at Honda - lack of consistent, accurate diagnosis. I've seen several cases of over-revved engined fixed under "good will" when the evidence was clear that the car had been abused; burned out clutch, bent valves and impact markes on the tops of the pistons. In my opinion, Scott's engine was never abused and the reason for warrantee denial are not supported by the physical evidence. I believe he will prevail in court. As punishment, I suggest that each of the Honda decision-makers in this process be subject to "10 minutes of terror" in Scott's car at a driver's education event. They will either vomit, or be so excited by the experience that they will run out and buy S2000s themselves and become addicted to the "go-fast crack pipe"
.
11-08-2003, 06:00 AM
#30
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In my opinion, Scott's engine was never abused and the reason for warrantee denial are not supported by the physical evidence. I believe he will prevail in court. As punishment, I suggest that each of the Honda decision-makers in this process be subject to "10 minutes of terror" in Scott's car at a driver's education event. They will either vomit, or be so excited by the experience that they will run out and buy S2000s themselves and become addicted to the "go-fast crack pipe" .
.
Thanks Coraldoc!
I'd love to take em for the "terror tour!" Then they can tell me how I can't find the right gear and what a shitty driver I am!
