Water cool or intercool? for supercharger application
03-11-2004, 03:41 PM
#11
Don't misquote me. I'm not suggesting you add a bigger radiator. I was asking MacGyver if AW is more efficient than AA with an adequate radiator. Whether or not the radiators that come with the Vortech and Comptech kits are big enough is an issue for the slide rule boys.
You seem to have a very simplistic approach to this but then totally contradict yourself. You say keep the number of components down, then add pulleys, engine management, injectors (I assume). That's hardly keeping it simple.
The only reason it's the end of the story for you is because you don't want to think too deep about it or actually do it. You are correct that an AA system would be ideal, but the return on investment doesn't justify it. By your own admission to use AA on an S2000 requires long piping, engine management, smaller pulley, yadda yadda...
Granted you can use a AA, but it introduces a whole bunch of issues which then need to be dealt with separately and cost a heap of money and detract from the whole reason for going AA. And what do you get for it? Not much.
I ask you this: If you think AA is so good for SC on the S2000 why is no one doing it? Why don't the two kits that have been selling for several years use an AA? Why haven't you set up an SC with AA?
I expect the answer is because it's very easy to sit at your computer and type crack if you don't ever have to actually do it. You let us (Comptech, Vortech, S2ki and I) know when you've got it happening. 'til then.....
END OF STORY!
BTW, Comptech SC, no AC, 8lb pulley, E-manage and 440cc injectors. 214Kw at the wheels.
You seem to have a very simplistic approach to this but then totally contradict yourself. You say keep the number of components down, then add pulleys, engine management, injectors (I assume). That's hardly keeping it simple.
End of story.
Granted you can use a AA, but it introduces a whole bunch of issues which then need to be dealt with separately and cost a heap of money and detract from the whole reason for going AA. And what do you get for it? Not much.
I ask you this: If you think AA is so good for SC on the S2000 why is no one doing it? Why don't the two kits that have been selling for several years use an AA? Why haven't you set up an SC with AA?
I expect the answer is because it's very easy to sit at your computer and type crack if you don't ever have to actually do it. You let us (Comptech, Vortech, S2ki and I) know when you've got it happening. 'til then.....
END OF STORY!
BTW, Comptech SC, no AC, 8lb pulley, E-manage and 440cc injectors. 214Kw at the wheels.
03-11-2004, 04:01 PM
#12
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well what you just said answered your own question. the reason vortech and everyone else doesn't do it is it would cost more money to the consumer. which in terms creats less sales. i do think it makes more sence for an everyday driver that a a/w is going to be better for a car that may have to say sit in traffic and what not that may make the temps rise.
03-11-2004, 04:09 PM
#13
I already knew the answer. It's Big Ben that is having trouble with it. And there's more to it than just cost.
The answer is that (in the case of the S2000) it is expensive, complex, prone to trouble and provides little to no improvement over AW.
Surely by those criteria AA has to be judged less efficient than AW in the case of an Sc'd S2000.
The answer is that (in the case of the S2000) it is expensive, complex, prone to trouble and provides little to no improvement over AW.
Surely by those criteria AA has to be judged less efficient than AW in the case of an Sc'd S2000.
03-11-2004, 04:13 PM
#14
BTW, the two cases I know of people trying an AA on an SC'd S2000 are Shaner (very early) and AHHVTEC.
Shaner's wasn't successful. AHHVTEC has never really answered conclusively whether or not it was a good setup, but it didn't last long before he went turbo.
Anybody know of any others?
Shaner's wasn't successful. AHHVTEC has never really answered conclusively whether or not it was a good setup, but it didn't last long before he went turbo.
Anybody know of any others?
03-11-2004, 06:10 PM
#16
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Thank you guys, I didn't think anybody was interested. I read some articles about the subject and I personally was inclining more toward WA. First, water dissipates heat more efficiently than air. Just think about this, try soaking a hot metal piece in water it will cool almost inmediately. Now, try to cool it with high pressure air, its going to take much longer to cool.
Second, the WA resevoir connects almost inmediately to the throttle body as a result the system doesn't lose a lot of pressure vs AA wich have to go around a lot of piping resulting on lost of pressure therefore as indcated earlier your going to have to invest in a smaller pulley,bigger injectors, additional computer etc, to compensate the pressure loss.
Finally the WA systems that are currently used on the favorites SC kits all have water pumps in order for the water to pass from the reservoir to the radiator get cool and back. Big ben, thank you for your opinion but I think you are living in the past. Meanwhile the WA systems your describing are the one that were used in the biggining for Drag racing. This systems were filled with water and ice for cooling and basicly that was what the system consisted off.
Anyway thank you guys I just wanted other opinions to guide me throught my decision.
Second, the WA resevoir connects almost inmediately to the throttle body as a result the system doesn't lose a lot of pressure vs AA wich have to go around a lot of piping resulting on lost of pressure therefore as indcated earlier your going to have to invest in a smaller pulley,bigger injectors, additional computer etc, to compensate the pressure loss.
Finally the WA systems that are currently used on the favorites SC kits all have water pumps in order for the water to pass from the reservoir to the radiator get cool and back. Big ben, thank you for your opinion but I think you are living in the past. Meanwhile the WA systems your describing are the one that were used in the biggining for Drag racing. This systems were filled with water and ice for cooling and basicly that was what the system consisted off.
Anyway thank you guys I just wanted other opinions to guide me throught my decision.
03-11-2004, 07:57 PM
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Wrong.
My reply is way too long for me to type tonight so I'll save it for tomorrow morning when I get to work.
As for the remark about me not knowing what I'm talking about, (as politely implied by AUS2000).
I'm an engineer. I have been through thermodynamics, numerous mechanics courses, need I go on? My last car, I built it's turbo system FROM THE GROUND UP. I will assure you that I know what I'm talking about.
My reply is way too long for me to type tonight so I'll save it for tomorrow morning when I get to work.
As for the remark about me not knowing what I'm talking about, (as politely implied by AUS2000).
I'm an engineer. I have been through thermodynamics, numerous mechanics courses, need I go on? My last car, I built it's turbo system FROM THE GROUND UP. I will assure you that I know what I'm talking about.
03-11-2004, 08:08 PM
#20
How will I sleep?
One again you misconstrue what I said. I didn't say you don't know what you are talking about. I said you refuse to take the actual application into account and weigh up all the pros and cons. Instead you talk about F1 and other race cars, engine management and small pulleys.
The application is a supercharged S2000. The salient facts are low boost, linear boost gradient, and difficult plumbing for a front mount IC. If you bother to take these parameters into consideration you would probably see what I (and several others including Comptech and Vortech) are saying. But you are just looking for a universal truth you can apply to all situations. I'm sorry, but once you get off the drawing board the world doesn't work that way.
Have a good nights sleep.
One again you misconstrue what I said. I didn't say you don't know what you are talking about. I said you refuse to take the actual application into account and weigh up all the pros and cons. Instead you talk about F1 and other race cars, engine management and small pulleys.
The application is a supercharged S2000. The salient facts are low boost, linear boost gradient, and difficult plumbing for a front mount IC. If you bother to take these parameters into consideration you would probably see what I (and several others including Comptech and Vortech) are saying. But you are just looking for a universal truth you can apply to all situations. I'm sorry, but once you get off the drawing board the world doesn't work that way.
Have a good nights sleep.