Transmission Trouble Help
03-21-2012, 01:02 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Transmission Trouble Help
I have an issue described exactly as a previous user posted here https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/895...#entry20951192 But no solution was found.
The TLDR is:
Another good example of the problem is here https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/index.php...&qpid=21417631
TLDR:
Any ideas? I've thus far done a full fluid change. The grinding problem(s) occur when warmed up or cold. I've had a LITTLE success with in the process of shifting to 2nd getting completely off the gas -> neutral for a second -> 2nd gear -> then gas + clutch. Also had slightly more success but nothing substantial with skipping 2nd gear completely going 1st -> 3rd -> 5th whenever possible.
Thoughts and suggestions before I go rummaging around for the needle in the haystack?
The TLDR is:
hey guys, i am having issues with my ap1 trans. when i am driving and looking to shift gears it is very difficult to enter the up coming gear. my foot is 100% depressed on the clutch i know this, yet it still is very difficult to enter say 2nd gear. i hear grinding once and awhile if i go to pull down into second or even to push up into 3rd. to prevent this i just put the car from 1st to N then shift to 2nd gear. does this sound like a synchros problem? anyone had the same issue?
also if it does mean that i need to rip apart my trans, would it be more adventagous to replace the entire trans? i can get my hands on a ap2 trans for a good deal. is the swap difficult? harness need to be changed? drive shaft flange? anything?
obv, i will do the clutch when its out.
thanks for the help fellow s2k'rs
Sean
also if it does mean that i need to rip apart my trans, would it be more adventagous to replace the entire trans? i can get my hands on a ap2 trans for a good deal. is the swap difficult? harness need to be changed? drive shaft flange? anything?
obv, i will do the clutch when its out.
thanks for the help fellow s2k'rs
Sean
TLDR:
I've had a semi poor experience with my S2000 transmission since buying the car last February. I thought it was just me getting used to the car since I had never owned one or driven one long enough to know better. Well, needless to say, it's been one of my main goals to improve upon.
It all started with a slight "buzz" noise, which I figured was clutch buzz, so I got used to it. This still being strange still due to the fact that I own a AP2, the improved model that supposedly eliminated the buzz. Yet, I passed it as normal. I also had a very inconsistent clutch, slippage on fast shifts, and shift feel wasn't smooth like I felt it should have been, so I changed on the AP2 slave with an AP1 slave. My clutch engagement improved, shifts got slightly better, but the slippage didn't disappear completely. Figured the clutch had took some abuse.
About 3 months ago is when it started getting interesting. I started noticing that my shifts were getting worse. 2nd gear loves to notch and grind a bit, no matter how much attention I pay to shifting, even after warm up. And I started feeling a slight vibration upon releasing the clutch pedal after shifting gears. I thought something in the clutch was finally giving in.
In the last few weeks, the noise became audible at all times, except when the clutch pedal was in. The tranny shifted poorly to 2nd and overall the tranny felt worse. I assumed the clutch was the cause and took it to Billman250 to have replaced and upgraded last week.
While I was with Billman250 working on the car, I talked to him about my issues. We both figured a clutch was in need, but he checked my engine crankshaft thrust bearing to be sure that wasn't a problem(this can cause noticeable vibration in the clutch pedal). So he installed the clutch and the car didn't seem to have any immediate issues right after. The new clutch feels great, no slippage and good engagement.
I noticed the noise after getting the car out on the open road after the install. It was back, but slightly different in sound. The chatter on clutch engagement is back too(clutch disc vibrating due to trans shaft?). The noise sounds more like metal to metal now and my shifts just the same... crappy. 2nd gear is almost impossible to shift smoothly and the tranny has a high pitched whine in higher gears, especially when cold. I am now assuming my tranny is the issue and has been all along. Billman is too far away to have him diagnose but he is leaning towards it too, as he is almost positive the clutch isn't the problem now that it's been replaced. So I am looking for a transmission.
I just wanted to post up my experience and see if anyone can relate. It seems to be a rare thing to have a major transmission issue, so I'm still in disbelief that I may be replacing mine.
It all started with a slight "buzz" noise, which I figured was clutch buzz, so I got used to it. This still being strange still due to the fact that I own a AP2, the improved model that supposedly eliminated the buzz. Yet, I passed it as normal. I also had a very inconsistent clutch, slippage on fast shifts, and shift feel wasn't smooth like I felt it should have been, so I changed on the AP2 slave with an AP1 slave. My clutch engagement improved, shifts got slightly better, but the slippage didn't disappear completely. Figured the clutch had took some abuse.
About 3 months ago is when it started getting interesting. I started noticing that my shifts were getting worse. 2nd gear loves to notch and grind a bit, no matter how much attention I pay to shifting, even after warm up. And I started feeling a slight vibration upon releasing the clutch pedal after shifting gears. I thought something in the clutch was finally giving in.
In the last few weeks, the noise became audible at all times, except when the clutch pedal was in. The tranny shifted poorly to 2nd and overall the tranny felt worse. I assumed the clutch was the cause and took it to Billman250 to have replaced and upgraded last week.
While I was with Billman250 working on the car, I talked to him about my issues. We both figured a clutch was in need, but he checked my engine crankshaft thrust bearing to be sure that wasn't a problem(this can cause noticeable vibration in the clutch pedal). So he installed the clutch and the car didn't seem to have any immediate issues right after. The new clutch feels great, no slippage and good engagement.
I noticed the noise after getting the car out on the open road after the install. It was back, but slightly different in sound. The chatter on clutch engagement is back too(clutch disc vibrating due to trans shaft?). The noise sounds more like metal to metal now and my shifts just the same... crappy. 2nd gear is almost impossible to shift smoothly and the tranny has a high pitched whine in higher gears, especially when cold. I am now assuming my tranny is the issue and has been all along. Billman is too far away to have him diagnose but he is leaning towards it too, as he is almost positive the clutch isn't the problem now that it's been replaced. So I am looking for a transmission.
I just wanted to post up my experience and see if anyone can relate. It seems to be a rare thing to have a major transmission issue, so I'm still in disbelief that I may be replacing mine.
Any ideas? I've thus far done a full fluid change. The grinding problem(s) occur when warmed up or cold. I've had a LITTLE success with in the process of shifting to 2nd getting completely off the gas -> neutral for a second -> 2nd gear -> then gas + clutch. Also had slightly more success but nothing substantial with skipping 2nd gear completely going 1st -> 3rd -> 5th whenever possible.
Thoughts and suggestions before I go rummaging around for the needle in the haystack?
03-21-2012, 06:25 PM
#2
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I had very similar problems and found the cause to be a binding clutch. The shop I took it to did not grease anything on the inside when they did my clutch. This led to my clutch disk shattering after 40k in traffic making the shifting that much worse.
IIRC to find a bindng clutch:
Jack up rear of the car supporting w/ jack stands and cinder blocks
get in car and start it
Slowly let out clutch with shifter in 4th gear then depress cluttch again (do this part a few times because it wasn't 100% of the time with mine)
If the wheels do anything other than stop once you let the clutch back out, then your clutch disk is binding.
You should not need a new trans, I put in a new SOS kit and the car is basically AMAZING, completely different feeling from how it was before.
My suggestion would be do the clutch job yourself so you know it's done right or make sure it's a reputable shop.
IIRC to find a bindng clutch:
Jack up rear of the car supporting w/ jack stands and cinder blocks
get in car and start it
Slowly let out clutch with shifter in 4th gear then depress cluttch again (do this part a few times because it wasn't 100% of the time with mine)
If the wheels do anything other than stop once you let the clutch back out, then your clutch disk is binding.
You should not need a new trans, I put in a new SOS kit and the car is basically AMAZING, completely different feeling from how it was before.
My suggestion would be do the clutch job yourself so you know it's done right or make sure it's a reputable shop.
03-22-2012, 11:22 AM
#3
Thread Starter
I'm at 38k myself and the issue started happening. Did your problem start with that buzz noise I quoted in the first post as well? If your issue started and proceeded to have the same symptoms as mine then we may have found the culprit. My only issue is that the car is 100% OEM, I just recently had all the fluids changed but everything else is from the factory unchanged, including the clutch.
I'm not the most mechanically inclined so when you say start the car and put it in 4th would the car not stall? And what are you referring to that it didn't happen 100% of the time with you, what should I look for to happen 100% of the time?
EDIT: Just did what you said and the wheels STOP when in 4th and clutch disengaged, so no clutch binding
I'm not the most mechanically inclined so when you say start the car and put it in 4th would the car not stall? And what are you referring to that it didn't happen 100% of the time with you, what should I look for to happen 100% of the time?
EDIT: Just did what you said and the wheels STOP when in 4th and clutch disengaged, so no clutch binding
03-22-2012, 02:09 PM
#4
Thread Starter
Possible solution?
Doing some more research this line from this post here by a Honda Mechanic pretty much explains the problem:
"Q. What causes an occasional "catch" between 1st and 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd? The "catch" could be described as subtle (not a grind) but is annoying.
Is this what people refer to as notchy? Seems to happen when ambient temperatures are high and just in low rpm normal driving. Clutch pedal is fully depressed.
A. The "Catch" or notchy feeling is the synchros doing their job before they let you slide the sleeve into second gear. When the NSX came out with the notchy triple cone synchros this was very noticeable. If you bring the revs up then push in the clutch, then pull with constant pressure the shifter from first to second it will fall into second when the main shaft speed is the same as the second gear on the countershaft."
Source: http://s2000.com/forums/engine-tech-...da-tech-s.html
BUT, get this. Today after I did what RoninS2k suggested my buddy and I decided to go for a drive and check things out again. Did a small pull from 1st gear at 7000 rpms into 2nd gear fairly regularly the car grinded very bad. Clutch was completely in, all driver error can be ruled out, something is awry. I'm leaning towards the spline being the problem, but would it be so bad that it would cause a grind?
Yes there are variables, greasing the shifter gives you about a 1% chance of fixing notchy shifting.
The s2k comes with no grease on the disc spline from the factory. If your clutch is original, and has many years on it, you can bet the bank you have a rusted spline.
Clean with a wire brush, and use a high-adhesive grease like Valvoline Cerulean. You can expect over 100k miles of wonderful, brand-new-car-like shifting.
The s2k comes with no grease on the disc spline from the factory. If your clutch is original, and has many years on it, you can bet the bank you have a rusted spline.
Clean with a wire brush, and use a high-adhesive grease like Valvoline Cerulean. You can expect over 100k miles of wonderful, brand-new-car-like shifting.
Doing some more research this line from this post here by a Honda Mechanic pretty much explains the problem:
"Q. What causes an occasional "catch" between 1st and 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd? The "catch" could be described as subtle (not a grind) but is annoying.
Is this what people refer to as notchy? Seems to happen when ambient temperatures are high and just in low rpm normal driving. Clutch pedal is fully depressed.
A. The "Catch" or notchy feeling is the synchros doing their job before they let you slide the sleeve into second gear. When the NSX came out with the notchy triple cone synchros this was very noticeable. If you bring the revs up then push in the clutch, then pull with constant pressure the shifter from first to second it will fall into second when the main shaft speed is the same as the second gear on the countershaft."
Source: http://s2000.com/forums/engine-tech-...da-tech-s.html
BUT, get this. Today after I did what RoninS2k suggested my buddy and I decided to go for a drive and check things out again. Did a small pull from 1st gear at 7000 rpms into 2nd gear fairly regularly the car grinded very bad. Clutch was completely in, all driver error can be ruled out, something is awry. I'm leaning towards the spline being the problem, but would it be so bad that it would cause a grind?
03-24-2012, 10:26 AM
#6
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I'm at 38k myself and the issue started happening. Did your problem start with that buzz noise I quoted in the first post as well? If your issue started and proceeded to have the same symptoms as mine then we may have found the culprit. My only issue is that the car is 100% OEM, I just recently had all the fluids changed but everything else is from the factory unchanged, including the clutch.
I'm not the most mechanically inclined so when you say start the car and put it in 4th would the car not stall? And what are you referring to that it didn't happen 100% of the time with you, what should I look for to happen 100% of the time?
EDIT: Just did what you said and the wheels STOP when in 4th and clutch disengaged, so no clutch binding
I'm not the most mechanically inclined so when you say start the car and put it in 4th would the car not stall? And what are you referring to that it didn't happen 100% of the time with you, what should I look for to happen 100% of the time?
EDIT: Just did what you said and the wheels STOP when in 4th and clutch disengaged, so no clutch binding
1. You have to raise the rear of the car on jack stands (be VERY CAREFUL and support it with cinder blocks, do it at your own risk.)
2. Start the car
3. Depress clutch, put into 4th
4. Let the clutch out very slowly (rear tires will spin)
5. Press clutch in and look at rear tires
My rear tires would do one of a few things:
1. Stop spinning
2. Slow down spinning but continue
3. stop spinning, start spinning again
4. continue spinning
Which is why I say do steps 4,5 a couple of times. The first time my tires stopped spinning, but i must have done the test 12 times and got all different results every time.. My disk was binding.
ps sorry for getting back so late to you, if you have any other questions let me know. Just went through this a few weeks ago.
03-25-2012, 08:00 PM
#7
Thread Starter
I did that test and the wheels stopped each time, but when you say " I would let off the gas and my car would violently shift weight." I have something like that as well. It's most of the time in 1st gear but I always attributed it to being at low rpms in a low gear at the start of a power band? I'm almost positibe I don't have clutch binding, I really think it's rusty spline. If I move the shifter should I feel anything that would attribute to a rusty spline?
I really can't just drop the tranny to take a look without being almost definitive..
I really can't just drop the tranny to take a look without being almost definitive..
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04-13-2012, 05:09 AM
#8
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I ran into this same problem and still trying to figure it out yet. I heard that my synchros may be the cause to it and heard something about a larger sleeve? So my cousin is looking into this to try to figure out whats the cause. Ap2 Transmission are great and i think its just the synchros and the sleeves i will be pulling my transmission soo and finding new upgrade s to the synchros and sleeves on the tranny to see what kind of result it does for me. ill keep you posted
04-13-2012, 08:50 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Awesome thanks.
I still have the problem and it comes and goes, I swear my car has it's own personality and has bad moods and good moods
What year are you and while your tranny is pulled you should check the spline for rust
I still have the problem and it comes and goes, I swear my car has it's own personality and has bad moods and good moods
What year are you and while your tranny is pulled you should check the spline for rust
05-25-2012, 11:09 AM
#10
I have a AP2 (06) and I have the same issue with the 2nd gear catch at low RPM, have to shift super slow (wait at least 1 sec) between shifts to prevent a grind, 3rd gear also have an occasional "grab". I tried MTFII and Amsoil in tranny with no change, flushed clutch master, verified no leaks in master, hot or cold, same thing happens.
Did you guys confirmed that this is rusted spline that causes this?
Thanks.
Did you guys confirmed that this is rusted spline that causes this?
Thanks.