Thoughts on Oil for the S2000
03-30-2001, 11:19 PM
#21
Originally posted by cdelena
I noted in both of my posts in this thread that synthetics have an edge in friction reduction. Since break-in is controlled wear, a reduction of friction delays the break-in, reportedly slowing seating the rings. Red Line does recommend waiting until the rings are seated before using their product.
Originally posted by RT
I don't know the answer, but think it's pretty funny that in the same breath that it's stated there is no "REAL" difference that statements are also made about waiting till break in is complete before switching to synthetics.
I don't know the answer, but think it's pretty funny that in the same breath that it's stated there is no "REAL" difference that statements are also made about waiting till break in is complete before switching to synthetics.
03-31-2001, 07:34 AM
#22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RT
I think tests have shown it makes a small difference.. one you can measure but small enough that there is no real world difference in feel or performance. I think there have also been tests that show it can increase the life on some surfaces from long to ridiculously long.
The issue of break-in is different since that is technically an assembly function being performed in the first hours of use. With many engines it is done by the mechanics that built the engine, not the consumer.
I use synthetic lubes (in my S2000, not the other cars) and think they the best you can buy, but is it necessary? IMO no, there is no notable increase in performance or longevity for the average driver. It just makes me feel better.
So, Chris, don't you think this "edge in friction reduction" might make a significant difference post break-in?
The issue of break-in is different since that is technically an assembly function being performed in the first hours of use. With many engines it is done by the mechanics that built the engine, not the consumer.
I use synthetic lubes (in my S2000, not the other cars) and think they the best you can buy, but is it necessary? IMO no, there is no notable increase in performance or longevity for the average driver. It just makes me feel better.
03-31-2001, 10:43 AM
#23
Registered User
From personal experience, I have a car where under track conditions, oil temps soar to well over 300 F, even with a small oil cooler. And that was before we boosted hp by 70%. I wouldn't trust anything but a quality synthetic under those conditions.
Other folks have oil cooled turbos on their engines. Bearing temps get pretty hot there too.
While a high quality traditional oil can withstand those conditions, for repeated, regular exposure I prefer to have the extra margin of safety provided by a synthetic.
One might also look at how the factory fill diff oil breaks down on the S2000. Obviously some issues with shear strength and perhaps temp stability there.
For a daily driver, regular oil is just fine. But for a car that is tracked on occasion, synthetic is nice insurance. You won't really know if you need it unless you instrument the car, but since most people won't take that step, why risk it?
UL
Other folks have oil cooled turbos on their engines. Bearing temps get pretty hot there too.
While a high quality traditional oil can withstand those conditions, for repeated, regular exposure I prefer to have the extra margin of safety provided by a synthetic.
One might also look at how the factory fill diff oil breaks down on the S2000. Obviously some issues with shear strength and perhaps temp stability there.
For a daily driver, regular oil is just fine. But for a car that is tracked on occasion, synthetic is nice insurance. You won't really know if you need it unless you instrument the car, but since most people won't take that step, why risk it?
UL
04-01-2001, 06:14 PM
#26
Registered User
If anyone wants to look at at "scientific" study of this, the July, 1996 Consumers Reports studied various oils. They rebuilt New York City taxicabs, ran them for 60,000 miles, and dissected the engines again and measured wear with micrometers, etc. Their conclusion was that premium mineral oil and synthetic oils were equal. They also studied various times between oil changes. I think they found no benefit from oil changes more often than every 6,000 miles, even though they were definitely in "severe" conditions as defined by Honda.
A number of years ago Bayer aspirin marketed their product as the best aspirin available. They showed a laboratory comparison that rated Bayer first of all aspirins. What they forgot to tell the public was that the laboratory measured roundness of the tablets. The Bayer tablets were more true than any other brand. Of course, roundness has no clinical benefit.
Just because you can measure a difference, the difference might not make a difference in your application.
Having said that, I plan to change oil every 3,750 miles or every 6 months. I will stick with mineral oil until I cross 5,000 miles. Then I will go to Mobil 1. 10W-30 for summer and 5W-30 for winter. I change oil twice a year for my daily driver (Prelude VTEC) but my daily driver gets more severe use, lots of short trips and barely any longer trips.
[Edited by Barry WY Silver/Black '01 on 04-01-2001 at 07:28 PM]
A number of years ago Bayer aspirin marketed their product as the best aspirin available. They showed a laboratory comparison that rated Bayer first of all aspirins. What they forgot to tell the public was that the laboratory measured roundness of the tablets. The Bayer tablets were more true than any other brand. Of course, roundness has no clinical benefit.
Just because you can measure a difference, the difference might not make a difference in your application.
Having said that, I plan to change oil every 3,750 miles or every 6 months. I will stick with mineral oil until I cross 5,000 miles. Then I will go to Mobil 1. 10W-30 for summer and 5W-30 for winter. I change oil twice a year for my daily driver (Prelude VTEC) but my daily driver gets more severe use, lots of short trips and barely any longer trips.
[Edited by Barry WY Silver/Black '01 on 04-01-2001 at 07:28 PM]
04-01-2001, 06:33 PM
#27
Registered User
Here's some cut and paste stuff from the October, 2000 issue of Consumers Reports. I found this on line at:
http://www.consumerreports.org/Categories/...ts/0010oil0.htm but you might have to be a subscriber to go there.
BEGINNING OF QUOTE FROM CONSUMERS REPORTS
Motor oil does more than lubricate the engine; it helps the engine run cool and keeps it clean. To help oil do its job, refiners add dispersants, which keep contaminants suspended in the oil, plus rust inhibitors, detergents, and antiwear agents.
Advertising touts big differences in performance among motor oils, but when we tested name-brand oils in taxicabs four years ago, driving each cab 60,000 miles, all the brands worked about the same--very well. We've also found no advantage in using oil additives such as STP or Slick 50.
If the brand doesn't matter, what does? Essentially two characteristics: viscosity and service grade. Viscosity is the oil's ability to flow at a given temperature. The two most commonly recommended grades are 10W-30 and 5W-30. Those are "multiviscosity" or "multigrade" oils, effective over a range of temperatures. In 5W-30 oil, "5" refers to how the oil flows at low temperatures (the lower the number, the easier the oil will flow); "W" means it can be used in winter; "30" refers to how it flows at high temperatures. Other things being equal, a 5W-30 oil will flow better than a 10W-30 at very low temperatures but will behave the same at higher temperatures. Use the grade your car's owner's manual suggests for your climate.
The service grade, on the label, is based on an American Petroleum Institute certification program to ensure that an oil protects against deposits, wear, oxidation, and corrosion. The current grade for cars is SJ.
What you'll pay
Some people save money by changing the oil themselves. Years ago, that was pretty easy, but the engine compartment in modern cars is often so crowded that it's hard to find and remove the oil filter--a must for a proper change. Moreover, disposing of used oil, which poses an environmental hazard, means taking it to a garage or other safe site.
If you change the oil and filter yourself, you'll pay about $10. If you have a professional do it, you'll pay about $20 to $25. Dealers tend to be the costliest venue for oil changes, but lately we've seen that some are offering discounted oil changes as a way to build business for their service department.
Some synthetic oils, including Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Performax, are pricier than most and didn't give a performance edge in our taxi tests. In our lab tests, however, they flowed particularly well at very low temperatures yet maintained their viscosity at very high temperatures. Such oils may be a good choice if you drive hard in very hot or cold weather, or if you often tow heavy loads.
Miles between changes:
For years, the mechanic's refrain was, "Change your oil every 3,000 miles," but engines and their oils last longer than before. In our taxicab test, we changed each car's oil every 6,000 miles and found no downside to that interval. Indeed, most automakers now recommend changing oil every 7,500 miles or six months (whichever comes first) for "normal" driving and every 3,000 miles or three months for "severe" driving. Trouble is, no one has conclusively defined "severe." The Car Care Council, an industry group representing service technicians, reckons that severe conditions involve driving in very hot or very cold weather, towing heavy loads, or making frequent starts and stops. That seems as fair a definition as any.
END OF QUOTE FROM CONSUMERS REPORTS
http://www.consumerreports.org/Categories/...ts/0010oil0.htm but you might have to be a subscriber to go there.
BEGINNING OF QUOTE FROM CONSUMERS REPORTS
Motor oil does more than lubricate the engine; it helps the engine run cool and keeps it clean. To help oil do its job, refiners add dispersants, which keep contaminants suspended in the oil, plus rust inhibitors, detergents, and antiwear agents.
Advertising touts big differences in performance among motor oils, but when we tested name-brand oils in taxicabs four years ago, driving each cab 60,000 miles, all the brands worked about the same--very well. We've also found no advantage in using oil additives such as STP or Slick 50.
If the brand doesn't matter, what does? Essentially two characteristics: viscosity and service grade. Viscosity is the oil's ability to flow at a given temperature. The two most commonly recommended grades are 10W-30 and 5W-30. Those are "multiviscosity" or "multigrade" oils, effective over a range of temperatures. In 5W-30 oil, "5" refers to how the oil flows at low temperatures (the lower the number, the easier the oil will flow); "W" means it can be used in winter; "30" refers to how it flows at high temperatures. Other things being equal, a 5W-30 oil will flow better than a 10W-30 at very low temperatures but will behave the same at higher temperatures. Use the grade your car's owner's manual suggests for your climate.
The service grade, on the label, is based on an American Petroleum Institute certification program to ensure that an oil protects against deposits, wear, oxidation, and corrosion. The current grade for cars is SJ.
What you'll pay
Some people save money by changing the oil themselves. Years ago, that was pretty easy, but the engine compartment in modern cars is often so crowded that it's hard to find and remove the oil filter--a must for a proper change. Moreover, disposing of used oil, which poses an environmental hazard, means taking it to a garage or other safe site.
If you change the oil and filter yourself, you'll pay about $10. If you have a professional do it, you'll pay about $20 to $25. Dealers tend to be the costliest venue for oil changes, but lately we've seen that some are offering discounted oil changes as a way to build business for their service department.
Some synthetic oils, including Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Performax, are pricier than most and didn't give a performance edge in our taxi tests. In our lab tests, however, they flowed particularly well at very low temperatures yet maintained their viscosity at very high temperatures. Such oils may be a good choice if you drive hard in very hot or cold weather, or if you often tow heavy loads.
Miles between changes:
For years, the mechanic's refrain was, "Change your oil every 3,000 miles," but engines and their oils last longer than before. In our taxicab test, we changed each car's oil every 6,000 miles and found no downside to that interval. Indeed, most automakers now recommend changing oil every 7,500 miles or six months (whichever comes first) for "normal" driving and every 3,000 miles or three months for "severe" driving. Trouble is, no one has conclusively defined "severe." The Car Care Council, an industry group representing service technicians, reckons that severe conditions involve driving in very hot or very cold weather, towing heavy loads, or making frequent starts and stops. That seems as fair a definition as any.
END OF QUOTE FROM CONSUMERS REPORTS
04-01-2001, 06:58 PM
#28
I wonder if Col. Drake had any idea what a contriversy he was starting when punched that first hole in western Pennsylvania.
04-01-2001, 08:27 PM
#29
Registered User
Barry, looks like you do have to be a subscriber. However, I did read that article when it first came out and I have to say it can be very misleading.
Why? Taxicabs are probably the worst place to determine the effectiveness of motor oil. Why? Many reasons.
1.) Because they don't undergo many of the conditions that are most taxing (no pun intended). For example, what is the typical duty cycle of a cab in NYC? Start it up in the morning, drive off and probably never shut the car off, except for maybe a lunch break. That means oil gets up to temp and stays there. Honda defines extreme conditions as short trips (meaning turning the car off), very cold/hot weather, extended idling, dusty conditions and towing. The only one of these that taxis typically meet is extended idling. The typical commuter car probably sees 2-3 cold starts per 100 miles (just guessing from my experience), while the typical taxi might see 1 every 200-300 miles.
2.) The engine. Most taxis are low revving V8's. They have a decent size oil reservoir, often include heavy duty cooling packages (from police cars) and don't put the kind of shear stresses that a 9000 rpm I4 might.
I have to give CR credit for trying (which is saying a lot, I subscribed once and cancelled after the Suzuki Samurai rigging fiasco occurred), but their test doesn't begin to tell the whole story. They do mention that synthetics may give advantages in other areas, but they didn't even make an attempt to test that.
UL
Why? Taxicabs are probably the worst place to determine the effectiveness of motor oil. Why? Many reasons.
1.) Because they don't undergo many of the conditions that are most taxing (no pun intended). For example, what is the typical duty cycle of a cab in NYC? Start it up in the morning, drive off and probably never shut the car off, except for maybe a lunch break. That means oil gets up to temp and stays there. Honda defines extreme conditions as short trips (meaning turning the car off), very cold/hot weather, extended idling, dusty conditions and towing. The only one of these that taxis typically meet is extended idling. The typical commuter car probably sees 2-3 cold starts per 100 miles (just guessing from my experience), while the typical taxi might see 1 every 200-300 miles.
2.) The engine. Most taxis are low revving V8's. They have a decent size oil reservoir, often include heavy duty cooling packages (from police cars) and don't put the kind of shear stresses that a 9000 rpm I4 might.
I have to give CR credit for trying (which is saying a lot, I subscribed once and cancelled after the Suzuki Samurai rigging fiasco occurred), but their test doesn't begin to tell the whole story. They do mention that synthetics may give advantages in other areas, but they didn't even make an attempt to test that.
UL
04-02-2001, 04:43 AM
#30
Registered User
UL, I basically agree with you.
Consumers Reports at least tried to study the "real world" differences between dino oil and synthetic oil. I don't know of any other long term tests.
Like I said above, even though Consumers Reports recommended 6,000 mile change intervals and any good mineral oil, I plan to give my S2000 twice a year changes (guessing at 3,000 miles a year) and Mobil 1 after about 5,000 miles.
Consumers Reports at least tried to study the "real world" differences between dino oil and synthetic oil. I don't know of any other long term tests.
Like I said above, even though Consumers Reports recommended 6,000 mile change intervals and any good mineral oil, I plan to give my S2000 twice a year changes (guessing at 3,000 miles a year) and Mobil 1 after about 5,000 miles.
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