Thermostat
01-07-2005, 10:47 PM
#1
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Thermostat
What are the advantages of installing a Spoon thermostat, if any??? And how difficult is it to change?? I noticed it may be somewhat easy if you can get at it from under the car.
01-08-2005, 07:16 AM
#3
I don't think I would do another cold thermostat unless I had a larger / better radiator. The stock cooling system isn't efficient enough to maintain the lower coolant temps in warm weather, so the colder thermostat causes constant heat cycling. When driving aggressively, it won't matter what thermostat you have, the temps are going to be above the full open rating of any thermostat.
01-08-2005, 08:19 AM
#4
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Gernby:
I am not saying you are wrong, but let me add what I found when I did actual real-time monitoring of coolant temps using an AutoXray 6000. Note: This is with the Mugen thermostat, which I would recommend over the Spoon for the reason Gernby said - the Spoon is too cold in my opinion.
I would not just do a thermostat without also doing the fan switch which matches the thermostat - otherwise, the heat cycling is, as Gernby said, will be extreme, and aluminum does not like that.
I found that Mugen lowered general temps by about 12-15 degF. Even at steady, hard driving situations, the temps stayed lower than with the OE unit. On the 2004, the temp stayed at 7 bars, one lower than stock.
In traffic, the combo of the thermostat and fan switch kept temps consistently lower.
Note that I did not use the scanner in a race situation, so i have nothing to comment on in that regard.
So while I am generally skeptical of claims made for thermos, the combo of the fan switch/thermostat has resulted in lower temps for me, but well within the "power envelope" - that is, too cool and engine efficiency and power will drop, let alone what can happen if coolant temps get so low that the car does not enter closed-loop. I think that is what Gernby was hinting at when he cautioned about too cool with the Spoon. In some cases, too cool will not allow VTEC to engage.
I would stick with Mugen - they know these cars, and their products seem to be well balanced between street/racing, while Spoon seems to be roiented to the racing (read extreme) side of things.
So in the end, it depends on your use and objectives, as in many things in life.
I am not saying you are wrong, but let me add what I found when I did actual real-time monitoring of coolant temps using an AutoXray 6000. Note: This is with the Mugen thermostat, which I would recommend over the Spoon for the reason Gernby said - the Spoon is too cold in my opinion.
I would not just do a thermostat without also doing the fan switch which matches the thermostat - otherwise, the heat cycling is, as Gernby said, will be extreme, and aluminum does not like that.
I found that Mugen lowered general temps by about 12-15 degF. Even at steady, hard driving situations, the temps stayed lower than with the OE unit. On the 2004, the temp stayed at 7 bars, one lower than stock.
In traffic, the combo of the thermostat and fan switch kept temps consistently lower.
Note that I did not use the scanner in a race situation, so i have nothing to comment on in that regard.
So while I am generally skeptical of claims made for thermos, the combo of the fan switch/thermostat has resulted in lower temps for me, but well within the "power envelope" - that is, too cool and engine efficiency and power will drop, let alone what can happen if coolant temps get so low that the car does not enter closed-loop. I think that is what Gernby was hinting at when he cautioned about too cool with the Spoon. In some cases, too cool will not allow VTEC to engage.
I would stick with Mugen - they know these cars, and their products seem to be well balanced between street/racing, while Spoon seems to be roiented to the racing (read extreme) side of things.
So in the end, it depends on your use and objectives, as in many things in life.
01-08-2005, 08:41 AM
#5
I don't disagree with anything RR said, but a buddy of mine had the Spoon thermostat and Spoon fan switch in his S2000 (I have the Mugen items), and his temp guage would bounce between 2 and 3 bars in the winter depending on his speed. In the summer, it would always stay at 3 bars, which indicated that it wasn't able to maintain the target temps in winter OR summer. I don't have that problem with the Mugen units in the winter, but in the summer (high 90s), my coolant temps are considerably higher. When I went to the track summer before last and monitored my temps via OBDII, I was running about 200F, which is above all the thermostat targets. On the street, I had even more fluctuation. On the highway, my temps would hover in the 170s, but if I stopped at a stop light after driving aggressively, the temp would shoot up over 200F.
This was with the heater on full blast (on the track), 20% antifreeze / 80% water, and Redline Water Wetter.
This was with the heater on full blast (on the track), 20% antifreeze / 80% water, and Redline Water Wetter.
01-08-2005, 08:47 AM
#6
Basically, it seems to me that a properly chosen thermostat should be targetted near what the system can maintain under any condition (track, highway, idling). From what I've seen, idling (or stop-n-go traffic jams) tends to be the biggest challenge. Of course, climate plays a big role.
01-08-2005, 09:59 AM
#7
I have monitored coolant temps on my car using the Mugen cooling mods on both street and track (I also have the Hondata gasket). I still question the value for most usage.
On the street and highway it does maintain a lower coolant but the vast majority of the time that has no advantage and maybe even a disadvantage as full warm-up is delayed.
On the track the heavy loads keep the thermostat (either stock or aftermarket) wide open 95% of the time so the cooling is limited by the capacity of the system, not the thermostat. The higher pressure cap stalls boiling a few degrees so it may be useful only in extreme conditions.
Using the carchip OBD monitor recording data every five seconds at TWS (2.9 mile track) I see the coolant temp rise all way down the straight while the IAT drops and then the reduced load and the speed in the turns resulting in lower coolant temps and higher IAT (repeated every lap). The average temps of both rise lap after lap stabilizing with a wide open thermostat and IAT higher than you would like as the entire engine heats.
The argument for the lower temps is that it provides a margin to stall off detonation and heat related problems, but it is clear that is not really true with the stock radiator on the track.
The stock cooling system is perfect for the street and probably only needs a bit more radiator capacity to suit hard track use.
On the street and highway it does maintain a lower coolant but the vast majority of the time that has no advantage and maybe even a disadvantage as full warm-up is delayed.
On the track the heavy loads keep the thermostat (either stock or aftermarket) wide open 95% of the time so the cooling is limited by the capacity of the system, not the thermostat. The higher pressure cap stalls boiling a few degrees so it may be useful only in extreme conditions.
Using the carchip OBD monitor recording data every five seconds at TWS (2.9 mile track) I see the coolant temp rise all way down the straight while the IAT drops and then the reduced load and the speed in the turns resulting in lower coolant temps and higher IAT (repeated every lap). The average temps of both rise lap after lap stabilizing with a wide open thermostat and IAT higher than you would like as the entire engine heats.
The argument for the lower temps is that it provides a margin to stall off detonation and heat related problems, but it is clear that is not really true with the stock radiator on the track.
The stock cooling system is perfect for the street and probably only needs a bit more radiator capacity to suit hard track use.
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