F20AP1

I never mentioned anything about which setup is the better one, nor did I say what should or should not be done. I've just summed up the facts. Also notice that I did not say anything about transient behavior (e.g. accelerating out of a turn), the information provided is for a steady-state corner. There is always going to be a compromise, as the decision of tires really depends on the end use of the car. Depending on what you're using the car for, you may not be "limiting yourself" with equal sizes front-to-back. The OP asked for performance differences between staggered and non-staggered setups, and I've presented them. It is up to you to interpret and use the knowledge.
[/quote]

Very true... Your opinion is also supported by fact... there was no argument by me intended... infact your absolutely correct... I'm just simply stating opinions based on my experience/physics major that's helped me come to the conclusion in which I have stated earlier... No pun or harm intended on your comments because, yes indeed they are supportable facts...

F20AP1

maybe it would be better to explain how to tune with sway bars... when you setup a car for the track you adjust ride height dampening pre-load and everything else you need like alignment and what not... get it to the point in which your comfortable... let's just say you go to another track or you want to "tune"... maybe you need more bite out of your front end or maybe your front end is pushing wile going into a turn so you would adjust the sway bar rather than compromising your suspension dampening characteristics and what not then you would A: adjust the sway bar to a stiffer setting or B: adjust it to a softer setting, which is why when u buy a sway bar they tell u to put it on the middle setting so you can tune it how you like... there are several other factors but that should be sufficient... but definitely they shouldnt be to adjust the characteristics from a stagger to a non-stagger setup... and those "national champions" your talking about... they probably run certain classes in which the modifications are limited or restricted.

LeonV

I never mentioned anything about which setup is the better one, nor did I say what should or should not be done. I've just summed up the facts. Also notice that I did not say anything about transient behavior (e.g. accelerating out of a turn), the information provided is for a steady-state corner. There is always going to be a compromise, as the decision of tires really depends on the end use of the car. Depending on what you're using the car for, you may not be "limiting yourself" with equal sizes front-to-back. The OP asked for performance differences between staggered and non-staggered setups, and I've presented them. It is up to you to interpret and use the knowledge.
[/quote]

Very true... Your opinion is also supported by fact... there was no argument by me intended... infact your absolutely correct... I'm just simply stating opinions based on my experience/physics major that's helped me come to the conclusion in which I have stated earlier... No pun or harm intended on your comments because, yes indeed they are supportable facts...
[/quote]

No harm done, but do note that I offered no opinions whatsoever, just the facts. Do with them as you wish.

F20AP1

I never mentioned anything about which setup is the better one, nor did I say what should or should not be done. I've just summed up the facts. Also notice that I did not say anything about transient behavior (e.g. accelerating out of a turn), the information provided is for a steady-state corner. There is always going to be a compromise, as the decision of tires really depends on the end use of the car. Depending on what you're using the car for, you may not be "limiting yourself" with equal sizes front-to-back. The OP asked for performance differences between staggered and non-staggered setups, and I've presented them. It is up to you to interpret and use the knowledge.
[/quote]

Very true... Your opinion is also supported by fact... there was no argument by me intended... infact your absolutely correct... I'm just simply stating opinions based on my experience/physics major that's helped me come to the conclusion in which I have stated earlier... No pun or harm intended on your comments because, yes indeed they are supportable facts...
[/quote]

No harm done, but do note that I offered no opinions whatsoever, just the facts. Do with them as you wish.
[/quote]

hunginator

Thanks for the opinions and advice everyone. You've all been very helpful.

I'm going to settle on getting a staggered setup on stock suspension. I will be looking to purchase coilover suspension later on in the year as well - looking for something that is a good compromise between street and track. I want to lower the car to make it look more aggressive but I am not pursuing the "slammed" look. If anything, 1 finger gap is good.

I'm probably going to get a set of 17x8 front and 17x9 rear Enkei RPF1's. Tire sizes will probably be 225/40/17 front and 255/40/17 rear. Should I do 255/35/17 in rear instead?

Also, does anybody know whether or not I will rub?

psychoazn

My personal opinion is that the car was designed with non-staggered tires, and then staggered before final production for safety reasons. Your average consumer, including 98% of this board, cannot properly address oversteer (see all the "snap" threads, etc). 205/225 going to 215/245 and then 215/255? Coincidence? I think not.

The hardcore advocates of large front sway bars are autocross guys. Here's how it originated. In stock class, they're only allowed two mods. The car on hoosiers lifts a rear tire, so they use a GIANT front sway as a band-aid fix. The other mod they do is shocks matched to OEM springs valved specifically for autocross.

Over the years, the FSB recommendation spread throughout the community, and IMO, is complete misinformation. It's so prevalent that R&C almost universally recommends it as a mod. Here's the thing. Myself and virtually all S2k Challenge (track) drivers DO NOT use aftermarket sways, or use a balanced set of sways, rather than just a giant front and a tiny or no rear.

Autocross cars are also set up to have ultra fast turn-in response (slow response is often perceived as understeer, when its really just the suspension not being loaded) and understeer like pigs in static load turns like sweepers and freeway onramps. I'm talking worse understeer than a STI.


Unless you're comfortable with what most people would consider a loose rear, I would recommend you stay staggered. Personally, I think everyone should learn to drive the car with a non-staggered setup.


Minus ViperASR, everyone who has responded has no significant amount of driving experience at the edges of the s2000.


p.s. the fastest state of static cornering in a stockish s2000 is with 6-8 degrees of slip angle depending on tire (in other words, slight oversteer)

Chugs

I agree with psychoazn.

Going to a non-staggered setup will add weight to the steering, and make it feel a bit slower, since there is a larger footprint than before. I noticed this immediately when I went from 205's to 255's.

I prefer non-staggered tires so I can rotate tires front-rear, and to add grip. In a car that is so underpowered, it doesn't make too much sense to me to put tires much wider than 255 in the back.

-Connor

Duke Togo

To the op wherever you look in the world either at the top level of motor sports or in cars designed with no limitations you will usually find staggered sizing. the LMP team for Acura was non staggered because of tire selection, once a proper tire was developed for the front they went back to staggered.

I personally like the staggered look better and I find the overall handling is much better, you can start tuning for the last 10% and turn the car into junk otherwise which is what alot of people have done with non stag setups. I've had a few cars that should have had a massive grip advantage spin off the road behind me because the limit is so narrow like that. I was actually fully setup for non stag at one point and I had my first ever spin off track, luckily I happened to be on a deserted road but that was the final straw. Since I went back I have had a much more enjoyable car overall.

It has it's place but the number of changes and the type of changes are more race car than street car.

BirdShot

I don't think the safety aspect gets emphasized enough in these staggered vs non-staggered threads.

Long story short, the first mod I did for my STR AP1 was 255's all around on stock suspension. We did an autocross test and tune on a fairly fast course and found the car was very tail happy the faster the turn/transition. Multiple experienced drivers in my car and everyone with the same opinion, it was difficult not to spin the car at speed. The band aid fix that weekend was to disconnect the rear bar.

Before the test and tune, I had no idea just how dangerous the car was in that condition. Driving on the street and highway I would have never known just how loose the car really was...until say, I needed to do an emergency lane change or took a corner a bit too fast. The car WILL want to spin and even though I consider myself a skilled driver, I don't want to have to deal with a spinning car on the highway. Now that I have increased the roll stiffness up front, I have reconnected the rear bar.

My point is, just know what your getting into when you go non-staggered. Unless you make other changes, you are making your car less safe on the street. But you may never know it until a situation arises and it's too late.

dwight

Increasing front traction/decreasing rear traction should result in more oversteer/less understeer. Though this result is not totally unexpected, the degree of this effect from simply running non-staggered, given that people running non-staggered seems isn't that rare, does surprise me a bit. Good to know.