Spoon vs Mugen!!
10-05-2001, 11:16 AM
#11
Originally posted by mingster
having an extra 10-12HPs at the top is always more beneficial on a circuit/track than mid-range.
having an extra 10-12HPs at the top is always more beneficial on a circuit/track than mid-range.
1) 10 - 12 HP is a big number (proven?) but the curve is more important than the peak number (a nice peak from 8500 - 9000 is more impressive on paper than in the car).
2) The majority of my track time is spent in the 6-8K rpm range and a very important aspect of driving an S2000 on the track is maintaining momentum so that you are not victimized by low torque pulling out of a turn, so peak HP is often not a major concern, mid range torque is.
10-05-2001, 11:23 AM
#12
Originally posted by cdelena
I will take exception to this somewhat misleading statement.
1) 10 - 12 HP is a big number (proven?) but the curve is more important than the peak number (a nice peak from 8500 - 9000 is more impressive on paper than in the car).
2) The majority of my track time is spent in the 6-8K rpm range and a very important aspect of driving an S2000 on the track is maintaining momentum so that you are not victimized by low torque pulling out of a turn, so peak HP is often not a major concern, mid range torque is.
I will take exception to this somewhat misleading statement.
1) 10 - 12 HP is a big number (proven?) but the curve is more important than the peak number (a nice peak from 8500 - 9000 is more impressive on paper than in the car).
2) The majority of my track time is spent in the 6-8K rpm range and a very important aspect of driving an S2000 on the track is maintaining momentum so that you are not victimized by low torque pulling out of a turn, so peak HP is often not a major concern, mid range torque is.
10-05-2001, 12:42 PM
#13
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Greg, to respectively dispute your claim about the size of Spoon's workforce, you would have to look at their goals. Spoon has had many oppertunities to expand and flourish, but decided not to, for the fact that they want to make high quality parts consistently for their costumers. I never said that Mugen is a timid business when it comes to racing, but their products for the S2000 are rather lackluster compared to Spoon. Just compare some of the parts offered: A full titanium dual exhaust which offers nothing but lightness and sound. Spoon on the other hand made a simple setup that makes the s2000 shine. Airbox systems do the same exact job, but Mugen is $1000 more. The header system that mugen offers probably gives the best fight. It matters what you want. Spoon gives maximum power while mugen provides good midrange power.
I hear you proclaiming how Mugen's resources outwit those of Spoon, but when compared, Spoon has more products for the s2000. I guess they better start using there resources a bit more.....
Like you said before, it comes down to what you what, and Spoon offers waht I exactly want. A pure honda race car!
I hear you proclaiming how Mugen's resources outwit those of Spoon, but when compared, Spoon has more products for the s2000. I guess they better start using there resources a bit more.....
Like you said before, it comes down to what you what, and Spoon offers waht I exactly want. A pure honda race car!
10-05-2001, 01:17 PM
#14
Banned
Chris, you are exactly correct with your statement above. horsepower is nice, but torque wins races and for me, I want more low/mid grunt. The top end of the S2000 is already crazy, so that's why I am quite happy leaving it alone.
Richard, I haven't done a count of Spoon products for the S2000. I would, however, say that by looking at the Spoon "snorkel" that it's a shameless, but not a very good, copy of what Mugen developed. There simply has to be a cut made into the hood to make for adequate air passage - otherwise, it's just too restrictive. I just don't see any original engineering there. And I seriously doubt your statement that the Spoon intake is as effective as the Mugen (which I do NOT have, btw). In fact, I had to read it a couple of times to make sure I didn't misread it. The Mugen intake is designed preserving the Venturi Effect and there is no chance that by just putting this snorkel (for lack of a better word) on the stock box will you be able to say that. The direction and turbulence of the airflow is important as the temperature of the air is.
I wasn't aware that Spoon has more S2000 products than Mugen does. In this number are you counting the reworked Honda pieces like the clutch disk and flywheel? Or are you counting just the things that Spoon actually manufactures? Those two numbers are going to be different. Just curious...
I do concede that Mugen does not race their S2000's or their S2200's. Spoon has the Advan race S2000 which we saw in person at the Twin Ring Motegi. Then again the next day at Type 1 in Tokyo. Looks like a pretty impressive car. I wish Mugen would have an S2000 racing program...there's not much competition in that arena as of yet. Hopefully that will change. I do admire Spoon for the desire to race and do things for the S2000. We all benefit. But it just doesn't wash with me that what they could do would have more R&D behind it, etc...call me a snob...
You are indeed correct about needing to know what you want. If you want hardcore R&D, beautiful fit and finish, a company with a 30 year history of serious and successful racing, then you would pick Mugen. If you don't, then you would pick another company. The cool thing is that there are so many choices, it's up to each person to make that choice for themselves...
Richard, I haven't done a count of Spoon products for the S2000. I would, however, say that by looking at the Spoon "snorkel" that it's a shameless, but not a very good, copy of what Mugen developed. There simply has to be a cut made into the hood to make for adequate air passage - otherwise, it's just too restrictive. I just don't see any original engineering there. And I seriously doubt your statement that the Spoon intake is as effective as the Mugen (which I do NOT have, btw). In fact, I had to read it a couple of times to make sure I didn't misread it. The Mugen intake is designed preserving the Venturi Effect and there is no chance that by just putting this snorkel (for lack of a better word) on the stock box will you be able to say that. The direction and turbulence of the airflow is important as the temperature of the air is.
I wasn't aware that Spoon has more S2000 products than Mugen does. In this number are you counting the reworked Honda pieces like the clutch disk and flywheel? Or are you counting just the things that Spoon actually manufactures? Those two numbers are going to be different. Just curious...
I do concede that Mugen does not race their S2000's or their S2200's. Spoon has the Advan race S2000 which we saw in person at the Twin Ring Motegi. Then again the next day at Type 1 in Tokyo. Looks like a pretty impressive car. I wish Mugen would have an S2000 racing program...there's not much competition in that arena as of yet. Hopefully that will change. I do admire Spoon for the desire to race and do things for the S2000. We all benefit. But it just doesn't wash with me that what they could do would have more R&D behind it, etc...call me a snob...
You are indeed correct about needing to know what you want. If you want hardcore R&D, beautiful fit and finish, a company with a 30 year history of serious and successful racing, then you would pick Mugen. If you don't, then you would pick another company. The cool thing is that there are so many choices, it's up to each person to make that choice for themselves...
10-05-2001, 02:04 PM
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10-05-2001, 02:10 PM
#18
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I'm curious to know if anyone has any information regarding the class that the Advan/Spoon racing car competes in. If its a particular class that restricts particular modifcations to the stock airbox, this might be a reason for their snorkled bolt-on to the intake, rather than a redesigned intake, snip off the hood and different filter.
