Snap over steer help!
04-11-2010, 02:20 AM
#1
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Snap over steer help!
Fellow AP1 S2000 owners hear me out! please don't flame me as I am a recent owner of a s2000 i just owned my s2 for almost 2 years.
in any case i've had a quite interest in track,auto x but don't wanna pay because it's sorta expensive to race on a road!
-02 stock ap1 s02 bridgstones
my question is snap over steer happen to me serveral times infact today i snap oversteer badly i was hitting a 70 degree turn from 1st to 2nd and right in the middle of the turn 2nd gear vtec hit and when i got out of the turn to straight the car fished and slid to the right then snapped to left and i spun out smack dabb on the middle of the street luckily it was night and no one around..
did this happen because vtec engaged and the power band broke the grip to the road?
am i suppose to turn in lower rpms?
when i was engaged before in turn during vtec i didn't snap oversteer but the car was almost getting to the point to spin out.
what are your guys concerns? any of your opinions would help or information.
in any case i've had a quite interest in track,auto x but don't wanna pay because it's sorta expensive to race on a road!
-02 stock ap1 s02 bridgstones
my question is snap over steer happen to me serveral times infact today i snap oversteer badly i was hitting a 70 degree turn from 1st to 2nd and right in the middle of the turn 2nd gear vtec hit and when i got out of the turn to straight the car fished and slid to the right then snapped to left and i spun out smack dabb on the middle of the street luckily it was night and no one around..
did this happen because vtec engaged and the power band broke the grip to the road?
am i suppose to turn in lower rpms?
when i was engaged before in turn during vtec i didn't snap oversteer but the car was almost getting to the point to spin out.
what are your guys concerns? any of your opinions would help or information.
04-11-2010, 02:37 AM
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As a rule of thumb, I never engage VTEC mid-turn on the street. That would most likely be the reason you spun assuming your tires have a reasonable amount of tread left and it wasn't wet outside.
Go autocross and learn the limits of the car (It is not that expensive ~30-45 dollars depending on the organization and your status as a member). Once you do that, you will find the "unexpected" tendencies of the car either won't happen or won't be unexpected any longer.
Go autocross and learn the limits of the car (It is not that expensive ~30-45 dollars depending on the organization and your status as a member). Once you do that, you will find the "unexpected" tendencies of the car either won't happen or won't be unexpected any longer.
04-11-2010, 02:38 AM
#3
Better alignment and drive sooner, try out the UK alignment, for the driving bit get to a bunch of autocrosses as they are cheap (im a broke college student and I can afford it) and there is not better way to learn to conroll a car than to take it to and past the limit in a controlled environment.
04-11-2010, 03:44 AM
#4
Get thee to as many autoX's and/or track events as possible this year. Cheap money compared to what you could end up liable for after losing control of your car on the street.
Meanwhile, drive NORMALLY (i.e., slowly) on the street and keep it out of VTEC altogether until you LEARN HOW TO DRIVE.
The AP1 does not suffer fools gladly for long, if at all...
Meanwhile, drive NORMALLY (i.e., slowly) on the street and keep it out of VTEC altogether until you LEARN HOW TO DRIVE.
The AP1 does not suffer fools gladly for long, if at all...
04-11-2010, 05:12 AM
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Is all this talk about snap oversteer with the S valid or do the concerns come from those who drove FWD cars all their life and are now driving a RWD car? I ask because snap oversteer is a concern with a rear engine car like a 911 but I've never heard of an oversteer issue with a front engine, rwd car like the S. Having driven RWD cars all my life I can say, for me anyway, it's a matter of driving experience.
04-11-2010, 05:30 AM
#6
There's a lot more to handling characteristics than engine placement.
There are two primary reasons the AP1 is such a handful for the uninitiated:
1. Rear roll stiffness bias. This gives the car initially oversteery behavior.
2. Rear toe change with bump. The rear tires toe in with bump, toe out with rebound. A really dumb feature, and a mistake that's been made before (NSX, FC). The idea is that as the car heels over during cornering, the outside rear will toe in to reduce oversteer. But it gives cars a non-linear handling feel, and if you should LIFT while cornering...
So, what happens with the AP1 is, if the back end gets a bit loose (easy to do with more than usual rear roll stiffness), and you abruptly back off the throttle, not only do you unload the rear tires (which by itself increases oversteer), but with the AP1 you *also* get reduced toe-in at the outside rear, giving still MORE additional oversteer.
Long/short, the car hates amateurs with a purple passion.
I've tracked a 240Z (similar front/rear weight distribution) with ~450 lb. less weight and 50 more rwhp for years, but that car's handling is very linear and predictable. But my first track laps in the S2000 spooked me a little. The AP1 just doesn't respond as linearly/predictably, due to the rear toe moving around with rear suspension motion. Easy enough to adapt to once you've gained experience with the car at the limit. Unfortunately, for many people their first time at the limit in this car is on the street, and their instinct tells them to do exactly the wrong thing, LIFT. Bad things..
There are two primary reasons the AP1 is such a handful for the uninitiated:
1. Rear roll stiffness bias. This gives the car initially oversteery behavior.
2. Rear toe change with bump. The rear tires toe in with bump, toe out with rebound. A really dumb feature, and a mistake that's been made before (NSX, FC). The idea is that as the car heels over during cornering, the outside rear will toe in to reduce oversteer. But it gives cars a non-linear handling feel, and if you should LIFT while cornering...
So, what happens with the AP1 is, if the back end gets a bit loose (easy to do with more than usual rear roll stiffness), and you abruptly back off the throttle, not only do you unload the rear tires (which by itself increases oversteer), but with the AP1 you *also* get reduced toe-in at the outside rear, giving still MORE additional oversteer.
Long/short, the car hates amateurs with a purple passion.
I've tracked a 240Z (similar front/rear weight distribution) with ~450 lb. less weight and 50 more rwhp for years, but that car's handling is very linear and predictable. But my first track laps in the S2000 spooked me a little. The AP1 just doesn't respond as linearly/predictably, due to the rear toe moving around with rear suspension motion. Easy enough to adapt to once you've gained experience with the car at the limit. Unfortunately, for many people their first time at the limit in this car is on the street, and their instinct tells them to do exactly the wrong thing, LIFT. Bad things..
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04-11-2010, 07:03 AM
#8
To a large extent, yes, it's been addressed in the AP2. AP2 has less rear roll stiffness bias, and more importantly, they fixed the rear-toe-change-with-bump/rebound (a.k.a. "bump steer") issue. The AP2 handes more predictably/inearly.
