Snake Oil (20w-40) and Trust.
04-10-2006, 10:17 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by Race Miata,Apr 10 2006, 08:43 PM
I want to comment about grounding kit. I'm not a big fan of it and I have never got one on any of my cars, but I won't call it snake oil just yet. From my personal experience, one time I forgot to bolt on the ground wire to my miata cylinder head and the effect was significant. I'm not talking about totally electrically isolated cylinder head. The cylinder head was still electrically conducted to the ground thru' all the cylinder head bolts. Yet, my O2 reading went haywire and I lost significant hp (like 30%) at high end. I kept scratching my head for long doing diagnostics and couldn't believe I just missed one of the many ground wires. Even though the spark plugs got their ground thru' the cylinder head bolts, the added noise due to missing one of many ground wire was good enough to confuse the O2 reading and the ECU (even though at WOT ECU doesn't look at O2 reading). While grounding kit may have no effect on an S with good electrical noise isolation, it doesn't necessarily mean grounding kit is snake oil.
04-11-2006, 06:19 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by Race Miata,Apr 10 2006, 07:43 PM
I want to comment about grounding kit. I'm not a big fan of it and I have never got one on any of my cars, but I won't call it snake oil just yet. From my personal experience, one time I forgot to bolt on the ground wire to my miata cylinder head and the effect was significant. I'm not talking about totally electrically isolated cylinder head. The cylinder head was still electrically conducted to the ground thru' all the cylinder head bolts. Yet, my O2 reading went haywire and I lost significant hp (like 30%) at high end. I kept scratching my head for long doing diagnostics and couldn't believe I just missed one of the many ground wires. Even though the spark plugs got their ground thru' the cylinder head bolts, the added noise due to missing one of many ground wire was good enough to confuse the O2 reading and the ECU (even though at WOT ECU doesn't look at O2 reading). While grounding kit may have no effect on an S with good electrical noise isolation, it doesn't necessarily mean grounding kit is snake oil.
all cars have more than adequate grounding. over time, the grounds may become slightly corroded and lose some of their effect, however, simply cleaning them restores them back to normal.
a grounding kit is another way to "restore" that lost power, but why do that when you can merely clean the terminals and connectors? don't post your thoughts in the electrical forum, or you'll get hazed by the electrical engineers that lurk there.
take it from people who know way more than you or I about electrical systems... grounding kits are as useful as a rubber band around your nut sack.
04-11-2006, 06:19 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by Ubetit,Apr 10 2006, 11:22 PM
A few thoughts:
Leaving a purposely designed engine block ground wire off or loose is an entirely different thing than adding 6 more grounding wires to your car.
You are confusing electrical "noise" and conductivity.
Cylinder head bolts don't guarantee a ground. They may be conductive but that doesn't mean the circuit is complete.
Leaving a purposely designed engine block ground wire off or loose is an entirely different thing than adding 6 more grounding wires to your car.
You are confusing electrical "noise" and conductivity.
Cylinder head bolts don't guarantee a ground. They may be conductive but that doesn't mean the circuit is complete.
04-11-2006, 01:28 PM
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I knew this was coming. 
I knew that no matter how much I emphasize that
1) I'm not a big fan of grounding kit,
2) I've never got one in any of my cars, and
3) I don't think it has any effect on an S with good electrical noise isolation,
I'd still get the same replies as soon as I set foot on the sensitive topic. I've no interest in arguments about the usefulness of grounding kits and I've never read any arguments anywhere in here about it. My post was not an illustration on how effective a grounding kit should be in the S but merely why grounding kit came up in the first place. I just somehow I thought that I should bring it up.
For the record, I'm an Electrical Engineer, and electronics has been my main hobbies at times since 25+ years ago. I've designed and built my own audio amplifier as my main hi-fi component more than a decade ago and knew the effect of star-grounding and ground loops. Although my job is in the field of computer programming these days and I enjoy mechanics as my hobby, my University degree is Bachelor of Applied Science in Electrical Engineering with Computer Option. I didn't confuse electrical noise and conductivity. In fact, it's exactly the 2 distinct properties that brought up the grounding kit and the general concepts in electronics about star-grounding to avoid ground loops. I absolutely agree with Wisconsin about cleaning the terminals and connectors (see point 3 above).
What triggered my post was the bad reasoning OP considers some suspension components made by the company who also happen to make grounding kits. I've already replied his PM explaining how I would consider the suspension components instead. I guess it doesn't hurt to post here. When I mod a suspension, I don't just go for a shopping list, get the parts, drop them in, and call it done. I repeat the cycle of testing and tuning (i.e. modding a particular part as needed). Before I'll go for an anti-bumpsteer kit, I'll try to narrow down the cause of my bumpsteer to the actual bumpsteer geometry problem. I'll then investigate the potential anti-bumpsteer kit I'm looking at in terms of build quality, goemtry, etc., but not whether the company sells grounding kits or not.
While at the topic of bumpsteer, in the particular case of my potential bumpsteer problem, I was tempting to consider it to be the biggest stumbling block for my setup (stock) and has been planning to get the anti-bumpsteer kit from GoFast. However, my analysis took a big turn when I figured it's my old street tires that's giving me the funky behavior. With absolutely no hesitation, I diverted the fund originally alloted to the BSK to a set of new street tires. All of a sudden, I turned 2 seconds faster lap times than before which is comparable to that resulted from setup with Toyo RA1s and BSK. Ask those who turn respectable lap times at the bumpy Pacific Raceways how hard it is for a stock S with lesser-than-stock street tires and NO rear anti-BSK to turn 1:44.37s. Would I have been faster if I had BSK instead of new tires for "my particular case"? Most certainly not for my particular case. Do I think BSK is snake oil? Definitely not.
I knew that no matter how much I emphasize that1) I'm not a big fan of grounding kit,
2) I've never got one in any of my cars, and
3) I don't think it has any effect on an S with good electrical noise isolation,
I'd still get the same replies as soon as I set foot on the sensitive topic.
I've no interest in arguments about the usefulness of grounding kits and I've never read any arguments anywhere in here about it. My post was not an illustration on how effective a grounding kit should be in the S but merely why grounding kit came up in the first place. I just somehow I thought that I should bring it up.For the record, I'm an Electrical Engineer, and electronics has been my main hobbies at times since 25+ years ago. I've designed and built my own audio amplifier as my main hi-fi component more than a decade ago and knew the effect of star-grounding and ground loops. Although my job is in the field of computer programming these days and I enjoy mechanics as my hobby, my University degree is Bachelor of Applied Science in Electrical Engineering with Computer Option. I didn't confuse electrical noise and conductivity. In fact, it's exactly the 2 distinct properties that brought up the grounding kit and the general concepts in electronics about star-grounding to avoid ground loops. I absolutely agree with Wisconsin about cleaning the terminals and connectors (see point 3 above).
What triggered my post was the bad reasoning OP considers some suspension components made by the company who also happen to make grounding kits. I've already replied his PM explaining how I would consider the suspension components instead. I guess it doesn't hurt to post here. When I mod a suspension, I don't just go for a shopping list, get the parts, drop them in, and call it done. I repeat the cycle of testing and tuning (i.e. modding a particular part as needed). Before I'll go for an anti-bumpsteer kit, I'll try to narrow down the cause of my bumpsteer to the actual bumpsteer geometry problem. I'll then investigate the potential anti-bumpsteer kit I'm looking at in terms of build quality, goemtry, etc., but not whether the company sells grounding kits or not.
While at the topic of bumpsteer, in the particular case of my potential bumpsteer problem, I was tempting to consider it to be the biggest stumbling block for my setup (stock) and has been planning to get the anti-bumpsteer kit from GoFast. However, my analysis took a big turn when I figured it's my old street tires that's giving me the funky behavior. With absolutely no hesitation, I diverted the fund originally alloted to the BSK to a set of new street tires. All of a sudden, I turned 2 seconds faster lap times than before which is comparable to that resulted from setup with Toyo RA1s and BSK. Ask those who turn respectable lap times at the bumpy Pacific Raceways how hard it is for a stock S with lesser-than-stock street tires and NO rear anti-BSK to turn 1:44.37s. Would I have been faster if I had BSK instead of new tires for "my particular case"? Most certainly not for my particular case. Do I think BSK is snake oil? Definitely not.
04-11-2006, 02:21 PM
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[QUOTE=Race Miata,Apr 11 2006, 04:28 PM]I knew this was coming. I knew that no matter how much I emphasize that
1) I'm not a big fan of grounding kit,
2) I've never got one in any of my cars, and
3) I don't think it has any effect on an S with good electrical noise isolation,
I'd still get the same replies as soon as I set foot on the sensitive topic. I've no interest in arguments about the usefulness of grounding kits and I've never read any arguments anywhere in here about it. My post was not an illustration on how effective a grounding kit should be in the S but merely why grounding kit came up in the first place. I just somehow I thought that I should bring it up.
For the record, I'm an Electrical Engineer, and electronics has been my main hobbies at times since 25+ years ago. I've designed and built my own audio amplifier as my main hi-fi component more than a decade ago and knew the effect of star-grounding and ground loops. Although my job is in the field of computer programming these days and I enjoy mechanics as my hobby, my University degree is Bachelor of Applied Science in Electrical Engineering with Computer Option. I didn't confuse electrical noise and conductivity. In fact, it's exactly the 2 distinct properties that brought up the grounding kit and the general concepts in electronics about star-grounding to avoid ground loops. I absolutely agree with Wisconsin about cleaning the terminals and connectors (see point 3 above).
What triggered my post was the bad reasoning OP considers some suspension components made by the company who also happen to make grounding kits. I've already replied his PM explaining how I would consider the suspension components instead. I guess it doesn't hurt to post here. When I mod a suspension, I don't just go for a shopping list, get the parts, drop them in, and call it done. I repeat the cycle of testing and tuning (i.e. modding a particular part as needed). Before I'll go for an anti-bumpsteer kit, I'll try to narrow down the cause of my bumpsteer to the actual bumpsteer geometry problem. I'll then investigate the potential anti-bumpsteer kit I'm looking at in terms of build quality, goemtry, etc., but not whether the company sells grounding kits or not.
While at the topic of bumpsteer, in the particular case of my potential bumpsteer problem, I was tempting to consider it to be the biggest stumbling block for my setup (stock) and has been planning to get the anti-bumpsteer kit from GoFast. However, my analysis took a big turn when I figured it's my old street tires that's giving me the funky behavior. With absolutely no hesitation, I diverted the fund originally alloted to the BSK to a set of new street tires. All of a sudden, I turned 2 seconds faster lap times than before which is comparable to that resulted from setup with Toyo RA1s and BSK.
I knew that no matter how much I emphasize that1) I'm not a big fan of grounding kit,
2) I've never got one in any of my cars, and
3) I don't think it has any effect on an S with good electrical noise isolation,
I'd still get the same replies as soon as I set foot on the sensitive topic.
I've no interest in arguments about the usefulness of grounding kits and I've never read any arguments anywhere in here about it. My post was not an illustration on how effective a grounding kit should be in the S but merely why grounding kit came up in the first place. I just somehow I thought that I should bring it up.For the record, I'm an Electrical Engineer, and electronics has been my main hobbies at times since 25+ years ago. I've designed and built my own audio amplifier as my main hi-fi component more than a decade ago and knew the effect of star-grounding and ground loops. Although my job is in the field of computer programming these days and I enjoy mechanics as my hobby, my University degree is Bachelor of Applied Science in Electrical Engineering with Computer Option. I didn't confuse electrical noise and conductivity. In fact, it's exactly the 2 distinct properties that brought up the grounding kit and the general concepts in electronics about star-grounding to avoid ground loops. I absolutely agree with Wisconsin about cleaning the terminals and connectors (see point 3 above).
What triggered my post was the bad reasoning OP considers some suspension components made by the company who also happen to make grounding kits. I've already replied his PM explaining how I would consider the suspension components instead. I guess it doesn't hurt to post here. When I mod a suspension, I don't just go for a shopping list, get the parts, drop them in, and call it done. I repeat the cycle of testing and tuning (i.e. modding a particular part as needed). Before I'll go for an anti-bumpsteer kit, I'll try to narrow down the cause of my bumpsteer to the actual bumpsteer geometry problem. I'll then investigate the potential anti-bumpsteer kit I'm looking at in terms of build quality, goemtry, etc., but not whether the company sells grounding kits or not.
While at the topic of bumpsteer, in the particular case of my potential bumpsteer problem, I was tempting to consider it to be the biggest stumbling block for my setup (stock) and has been planning to get the anti-bumpsteer kit from GoFast. However, my analysis took a big turn when I figured it's my old street tires that's giving me the funky behavior. With absolutely no hesitation, I diverted the fund originally alloted to the BSK to a set of new street tires. All of a sudden, I turned 2 seconds faster lap times than before which is comparable to that resulted from setup with Toyo RA1s and BSK.
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