AlexS2200

IMO everyone here on S2ki is too worried about Ap1 retainers. It is in my experience, more likely that S2ks suffer from bent valves when a mechanical over rev occurs. How do I know this? Because I've rebuilt 15 S2k cylinder heads this year alone for customers. I even had an 07 s2k that drove on bent valves for 10k miles and when I was finally able to service this car, one of the valves were cracked and ready to blow up the whole motor. Luckily we caught it in time.

As I stated s2ks suffer from bent valves. A lot of this is due to S2k's extremely smooth transmission; therefore a lot of drivers miss shift and rev the piss out of their motors. S2k cylinder heads have extremely weak valve guides. Due to the flow design the exhaust valve guides become loose and not only does oil end up leaking into the combustion chamber through the valve seals it also allows for more valve floating at high rpms 9k etc. This in turn causes bent valves.

I think changing from Ap1 retainers to Ap2 retainers is the biggest waste of time and money! Do retainers wear? Yes, but doesn't mean they have failed yet. If you are going to do the work to change retainers, you might as well change over to SuperTech Dual Valve Springs and Titanium retainers. Or another reputable brand. The seat pressure with Supertech is 92lbs. This will pull the valve back much quicker and will protect you from bending valves a lot better then the stock valve springs.

Do titanium retainers fail? Yes, but most cases are probably due to poor installation or used keepers/cotters to begin with.

LONG STORY SHORT: If you feel you have revved the your S2k motor past 10k rpms, you should take it in and have a compression test done first and then a leak down test if it fails compression. This will tell if you have bent valves. Because if you do, worrying about the retainers is irrelevant because you are going to have to pull the head and have it recondition anyway. IMO this is a much more common problem with s2k motors then retainers failing.

Also, who re-builds your cylinder head matters 100%! Here in Socal, I ONLY USE Tom Fujita @ Portflow Design.

Billman250

OF COURSE they are worried, why wouldnt they be!

I have seen 17 s2ks with cracked retainers. I have sent them on their way with AP2 retainers and keepers. They will not come back with galled retainers made from titanium.

None of these cars had bent valves, and the head did not need to come off.

If i didnt fix the retainers, the valves would have dropped into the cylinder, causing serious cylinder damage. So how can you say that is a waste of time and money? I'll givwe you 17 screen names, you tell them they wasted their money. They'll call you an ass.

Retainer installation is easy as pie. There's no TI retainer failing from poor installation. It's installed or its not. They fail because of the material they are made of. Sure they can allow the valve to run at a higher RPM. That is not necessary in an s2k.

IF YOU HAVE AN AP1, and have over-reved it, or bought it used, checking them is a must. You have every right to worry.

Broken retainers are the first thing that happens to on over-reved s2k, not bent valves. Thats not my opinion, its a fact.

Stock00S2K

Great info! Question for you Billman, I've recently had a compression & leak down test done on my car (MY00) and the results came back to show a very healthy motor (as told by a reputable shop). Does this mean there is no retainer damage, or can a "healthy motor" still have problematic or damaged retainers?

Thanks in advance,

Billman250

Healty motor can still have cracker retainers. They do not affect compression or leakdown.

In THEORY they could, but they dont.

Stock00S2K

Thanks Billman,

So, as far as inspecting, what is the procedure? any tips? Remove vale cover and then flashlight?

AlexS2200

Woah! What ever BILLMAN250. On all 17 screen names, how many of them did you compression test and leak down? I have 15 invoices that have recorded #s from compression PSI and Leak down % showing issues. FYI I do 8 cranks on compression closed throttle. Fuel pump fuse is out etc etc. I've tested 100 s2ks within this year all the same way. Oh, BTW my post wasn't to get into a pissing match with you it was just stating experience, so calm ur insults you internet gang banger. Lol As for titanium retainers failing, OMG is all I have to say. Have you ever heard of NHRA? How about Formula One? People who know how to make high horsepower motors all use titanium retainers. Or even teams running 25 hour thunderhill endurance races use upgraded valve train w/ titanium retainers. Also, how are you gonna tell everyone to check the height of the retainers/valve stems when they pull the valve cover off? Are you going to just visually see through the rocker arms and cams? Lol Yes you can see the retainers and Yes you should look to see if they are cracked. BUT JUST THINK ABOUT IT! If you rev past 10k rpms in a miss shift, what should you be more worried about? VALVE FLOATING and PISTON TO VALVE CONTACT? or the ever so fragile STEEL retainer. I also was stating changing from stock ap1 to stock ap2 is a waste, because you don't get any added performance (dual valve springs) With dual valve springs you can run bigger cam profiles and make more power or if ur boosted it will definitely help keep the motor safe.

Let me ask you another question? Since you have seen 17 fail HONDA factor retainers, how many failed titanium retainers have you legitimately seen from a motor with stock internals? (meaning valves, pistons, crank, rods stock) Do you know how long it would take for Titanium retainers to be galled up? Most people's motors won't even live that long. One of my customers has the highest mileage S2k motors. Its an 00 and has 280k miles on it. It was even posted on the s2k front page for the highest mileage. I just compression tested it and leaked it down. Guess what it suffers from? With 280k miles the block is still good. Here are the figures:

Cyl #1 160psi with 50% leakage
Cyl #2 220psi with 12% leakage
Cyl #3 180psi with 45% leakage
Cyl #4 210psi with 8% leakage

When I change this head it will be back to 210s or 220s in compression. Not bad for 280k miles.

When you go to a restaurant and get a fly in your soup, do you really ask for another soup or do you go to another restaurant. Lol If you don't get my joke, then it means why would you change failed retainers from HONDA for more Honda retainers? They obviously screwed up to begin with. Lmao!

Ain't nobody here trying to steel your thunder Mr. Billman250, Sir! Just trying to point out a more severe problem with S2ks or any interference motor when over revving. Bentvalves.com is something everyone should be checking ALONG WITH CRACKED RETAINERS. Lol

AlexS2200

Oh & FYI I just received another customer who is dropping off his car tomorrow to repair his cylinder head. Valves are so bent the motor sounds like a diesel. Lol I must not know what the heck I'm talking about. Lmao. S2ki please feel free to continue changing retainers and getting little to nothing out of it. Now I'm going to shamelessly brag about my S2k: lol

https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/550...#entry12074580

Importedpower

I think id do the ap2 retainers as simply piece of mind. and billman has talked me through quite a bit of work on my s2k, and is widely know for his extensive knowledge and from what i hear, his driving lol. I also see your point aswell tho....

Pull off the VC, check the retainers, if you see any issues, then thats when you should come for further news... till then, play nice guys!

I'd like to see the 2 of you build an s2k together lol, be an interesting beast

Advance1

i fully trust Alex and every word that he said. i was just at his shop today for at least 5 hours with him working on my car. and everything he said was clearly visible when he pulled off my valve cover and showed me the retainers. and regarding replacing with TI valve covers compared to ap2 retainers that's pretty much just common sense. It's not much of an UPGRADE if you get the same thing.

keep it up mangg
-Elton

ahrmike

I'm going to have to side with billman. Alex is right that Ti retainers are "stronger" but I'd rather have OEM honda ferrous metal retainer compared to a off-brand ti. If you get a proper TI retainer I'm sure it'll be fine.

One thing to mention about titanium compared to steel is that steel, when properly engineered has "infinite life" with respect to cycles experienced. Titanium, plastic, aluminum, -basically any non-ferrous metals have a finite life.