"Seat" dyno somewhat confirmed by shop dyno results.
09-21-2002, 10:19 PM
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"Seat" dyno somewhat confirmed by shop dyno results.
I have thought that this S2000 with the mods I have felt particularly strong, even before vtec. It's nice that Ultimate Lurker's dyno of the car today confirms this. Top hp (229) was the most UL has gotten from na S2000 so far, including vafc modified ones, but the curve all along the graph is strong as well; good work, Mugen, and thanks, King Motorsports!
Mods: Spoon cai with pinch point modification, tb coolant bypass, tb Proflow bore, Hondata gasket, Mugen header and ecu, cat 'bypass' test pipe (Spoon), and Spoon exhaust. Careful valve adjustment X4 with the last session showing one cylinder with slightly increased valve gaps compared to the others.
I also have been using Lubro Moly molybdenum additive to the oil.
Mods: Spoon cai with pinch point modification, tb coolant bypass, tb Proflow bore, Hondata gasket, Mugen header and ecu, cat 'bypass' test pipe (Spoon), and Spoon exhaust. Careful valve adjustment X4 with the last session showing one cylinder with slightly increased valve gaps compared to the others.
I also have been using Lubro Moly molybdenum additive to the oil.
09-21-2002, 10:26 PM
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Congratulations on having the highest results N/A at UL's. I hope once UL's head project finishes (if it finishes) there will be higher results. Have you also thought about putting on aftermarket cams (Toda or Spoon when it comes out)?
09-21-2002, 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by smccurry
Congratulations on having the highest results N/A at UL's. I hope once UL's head project finishes (if it finishes) there will be higher results.
Congratulations on having the highest results N/A at UL's. I hope once UL's head project finishes (if it finishes) there will be higher results.
About the cams, I have heard the Mugen ecu will not learn very well with new cams.
Also, UL detected misfires; I think I gapped the Iridium plugs too wide, thinking I would get a bigger spark.
09-21-2002, 10:39 PM
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Congrats on the awesome result! hows the mod on the Spoon CAI like?
was it a rolling dyno or hub dyno(dynapack style)?man still so mcuh untapped potential if u wanna fine tune the spoon ecu further by piggybacking with a VAFC...
also cams...high comp pistons....
was it a rolling dyno or hub dyno(dynapack style)?man still so mcuh untapped potential if u wanna fine tune the spoon ecu further by piggybacking with a VAFC...
also cams...high comp pistons....
09-21-2002, 11:19 PM
#5
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Hopefully in the next couple months we'll have at least one, maybe two people doing some documented before and after dyno testing on headwork. Fingers are crossed.
As for Prolene's car, it was really sweet. We made 5 consecutive runs with no cool down time and it kept making more power every single run. His is the 2nd car I've dyno'd with the Mugen ECU and both have made great power. Compared to the other car I tested, which had the ECU and the IDI intake snorkel, his made significantly more power, especially above VTEC, although peak was only about 6 hp higher. Clearly his header and exhaust helped out.
Another thing that I noticed was that his car didn't have a problem with heat. Between his thermostat, rad cap, tb bypass and especially his Hondata gasket, heat didn't bother his car at all. I think the Mugen ECU is more heat tolerant as well. But the one heat mod I think really works is the Hondata gasket. Prolene's is again the 2nd car I've dyno'd with that mod. Twohoos also has it and both cars made above average power and were very consistent. I wish Prolene's Mugen ECU didn't disable OBDII. I'd bet we'd find the car cooled back down very quickly after each pass. I've had a Hondata gasket sitting around for over half a year, but didn't want to go through the hassle of installing it. I think its time now (and of course I'll dyno :-).
On the topic of more gains with a VAFC, I wouldn't recommend that with the Mugen ECU. It's already at the limits of what I'd consider safe running on pump gas, and some users report poor running on 91 octane. Any leaner would probably loose power anyways.
Hope to do a quick before and after dyno on the Toda cams in the next couple weeks. We'll see what happens.
Oh, and its a Dynapack dyno. Typical 2000-2001 S2K puts down 211-212 hp. So Prolene's near 230 hp run is quite good.
UL
As for Prolene's car, it was really sweet. We made 5 consecutive runs with no cool down time and it kept making more power every single run. His is the 2nd car I've dyno'd with the Mugen ECU and both have made great power. Compared to the other car I tested, which had the ECU and the IDI intake snorkel, his made significantly more power, especially above VTEC, although peak was only about 6 hp higher. Clearly his header and exhaust helped out.
Another thing that I noticed was that his car didn't have a problem with heat. Between his thermostat, rad cap, tb bypass and especially his Hondata gasket, heat didn't bother his car at all. I think the Mugen ECU is more heat tolerant as well. But the one heat mod I think really works is the Hondata gasket. Prolene's is again the 2nd car I've dyno'd with that mod. Twohoos also has it and both cars made above average power and were very consistent. I wish Prolene's Mugen ECU didn't disable OBDII. I'd bet we'd find the car cooled back down very quickly after each pass. I've had a Hondata gasket sitting around for over half a year, but didn't want to go through the hassle of installing it. I think its time now (and of course I'll dyno :-).
On the topic of more gains with a VAFC, I wouldn't recommend that with the Mugen ECU. It's already at the limits of what I'd consider safe running on pump gas, and some users report poor running on 91 octane. Any leaner would probably loose power anyways.
Hope to do a quick before and after dyno on the Toda cams in the next couple weeks. We'll see what happens.
Oh, and its a Dynapack dyno. Typical 2000-2001 S2K puts down 211-212 hp. So Prolene's near 230 hp run is quite good.
UL
09-21-2002, 11:47 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ultimate lurker
[B]Hopefully in the next couple months we'll have at least one, maybe two people doing some documented before and after dyno testing on headwork.
[B]Hopefully in the next couple months we'll have at least one, maybe two people doing some documented before and after dyno testing on headwork.
09-22-2002, 10:52 AM
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It never ceases to amaze me how much of a difference there can be from one stock S2K to another with regards to horsepower. I've heard everything from 180rwhp to 212 rwhp bone stock! Regardless, even though I went the FI route I give mad props to the N/A guys such as yourself. Those are VERY impressive numbers! And the nice thing about it is that you have instant throttle response. Tres bien. I'll bet in an autocross you would take me out. 
UL, keep up with the R&D. It's nice to have a fellow owner who knows his sh!t working on upgrades and tuning.
-Larry
UL, keep up with the R&D. It's nice to have a fellow owner who knows his sh!t working on upgrades and tuning.-Larry
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09-22-2002, 11:22 AM
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Actually Larry, I believe that much of the variability we see in dyno runs is due to operator error, or differentials between dynos.
So far I've dyno'd 3 stock 2000's and 1 stock 2001. All were within less than 4 hp. I've dyno'd 3 stock 2002s, they were all within 2.5 hp. While the 2002's show a consistent gain above the 2000-2001 models, they are all consistent within their groups.
What's the difference?
1. On the dynapack we eliminate the variable of wheels and tires. Thus, we don't have to worry about slippage, tire inflation variation (less pressure increases drag and reduces measured power on dynojet style dynos), alignment, strap down tension (more strap down tension adds more drag) and aftermarket wheel/tire weight. I've seen large tire inflation differences create variations in power of up to 5 hp on roller style dynos.
2. Conditions. Most dynos now measure all the ambient conditions and self correct. But many older Dynojet setups require the operator to do a wet bulb humidity reading and enter the data. Many operators don't/didn't do this. Also, you have to have the temperature reading as close as possible to the intake of the car. Ever see a shop with a temp sensor in the sun? That'll make the ambient read warmer and the results will be corrected higher than they should be.
3. Consistency. We all know that the S2K is very sensitive to heat. But many people don't take proper precautions when testing. Some dyno places don't use proper cooling airflow to the radiator. You need a pretty big fan capable of moving a minimum of several thousand CFM to keep temps at least semi reasonable. You might be able to get away with one run without a fan, but its still questionable. Furthermore, very few dyno operators measure the coolant temperature of the car. In some cases its tough (unless there is an accurate gauge in the car, or you use a laser pyrometer on the radiator), but on OBDII cars like the S2K, you just have to plug in an OBDII sensor and read the ECU for coolant temps. When I test S2000s, I shoot for a coolant temp of 185F (which happens to match typical on the road temps), with a maximum variation of 5 degrees in either direction. This works very well to keep results consistent. Testing the first run of the day will usually result in the highest overall results, because while coolant temps may be at operating spec, the rest of the engine, oil, etc. are cool. This run is usually a throw away run, but not everyone notes this in their testing.
Dyno testing isn't tough, but you have to make the effort to control conditions and many people don't, probably because they aren't aware of the effects. Design of Experiment 101 :-)
UL
So far I've dyno'd 3 stock 2000's and 1 stock 2001. All were within less than 4 hp. I've dyno'd 3 stock 2002s, they were all within 2.5 hp. While the 2002's show a consistent gain above the 2000-2001 models, they are all consistent within their groups.
What's the difference?
1. On the dynapack we eliminate the variable of wheels and tires. Thus, we don't have to worry about slippage, tire inflation variation (less pressure increases drag and reduces measured power on dynojet style dynos), alignment, strap down tension (more strap down tension adds more drag) and aftermarket wheel/tire weight. I've seen large tire inflation differences create variations in power of up to 5 hp on roller style dynos.
2. Conditions. Most dynos now measure all the ambient conditions and self correct. But many older Dynojet setups require the operator to do a wet bulb humidity reading and enter the data. Many operators don't/didn't do this. Also, you have to have the temperature reading as close as possible to the intake of the car. Ever see a shop with a temp sensor in the sun? That'll make the ambient read warmer and the results will be corrected higher than they should be.
3. Consistency. We all know that the S2K is very sensitive to heat. But many people don't take proper precautions when testing. Some dyno places don't use proper cooling airflow to the radiator. You need a pretty big fan capable of moving a minimum of several thousand CFM to keep temps at least semi reasonable. You might be able to get away with one run without a fan, but its still questionable. Furthermore, very few dyno operators measure the coolant temperature of the car. In some cases its tough (unless there is an accurate gauge in the car, or you use a laser pyrometer on the radiator), but on OBDII cars like the S2K, you just have to plug in an OBDII sensor and read the ECU for coolant temps. When I test S2000s, I shoot for a coolant temp of 185F (which happens to match typical on the road temps), with a maximum variation of 5 degrees in either direction. This works very well to keep results consistent. Testing the first run of the day will usually result in the highest overall results, because while coolant temps may be at operating spec, the rest of the engine, oil, etc. are cool. This run is usually a throw away run, but not everyone notes this in their testing.
Dyno testing isn't tough, but you have to make the effort to control conditions and many people don't, probably because they aren't aware of the effects. Design of Experiment 101 :-)
UL
09-22-2002, 11:33 AM
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Thanks for the instructional UL. I wasn't aware of all of that. I'll have to make sure that wherever I get dynoed from now on they measure the coolant temp. That's a good call. Now one of two things has to happen... Evolution needs to get a dyno, or you need to move your shop to Virginia! 
rofl
rofl
09-22-2002, 11:35 AM
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Bravo UL! I love your posts as they are always knee-deep in wisdom and knowledge -- I was telling Bri's-S2000 on the way back from your shop yesterday, that if I had to choose one person to tune my car correctly -- it would be you. 
Prolene, wish I was there to see your car get dyno'd -- truly impressive stuff! Care to tell us what your power-to-weight ratio is these days?
13.3(lb):1(rwhp) --> 10.9:1? 
How did KT'S SUZUKA and SaintS2K (w/ Supersprint exhaust) do? They did back-to-back dyno runs at Buttonwillow & at UL's shop and am very curious to see how they made out.
Prolene, wish I was there to see your car get dyno'd -- truly impressive stuff! Care to tell us what your power-to-weight ratio is these days?
13.3(lb):1(rwhp) --> 10.9:1? How did KT'S SUZUKA and SaintS2K (w/ Supersprint exhaust) do? They did back-to-back dyno runs at Buttonwillow & at UL's shop and am very curious to see how they made out.