"Power" Ground wires...some interesting results...
11-22-2002, 11:40 AM
#1
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"Power" Ground wires...some interesting results...
I happened to be rumaging through some of the performance magazines at my local B&N last night and came across an article about these "powered" grounds (i.e., big copper wires). I believe it was in Sport Compact Car. I thought I would post a few comments/opinions so people could look back at a thread to see just what these things do (or DON'T do, as the case may be).
The story starts off with the usual "We got a call from these guys who said blah blah blah..." That's when the grand claims come in. First off, they brag about how their wires are made from copper instead of aluminum, like some "other" systems. Long story short, I actually agree with them on this point because copper DOES have a lower resistance per cross-sectional area than aluminum. But who do you know that uses aluminum for such short runs ANYWAY?! OK, this is the ONLY point were I agreed with what was in that article.
Next, they talked about how the copper wire was 99.999999999 yadda yadda yadda % oxygen free. So what? You look at the ground cable for Romex (what they wire houses with) and you'll find the same percentage of pure copper. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but all of that wires comes from the same few drawing dies in the same few factories. But somehow theirs becomes special when they wrap it in a pretty (and expensive) box. Go figure!
They make their wire out of 450 strands (don't remember the exact number, but that's actually pretty close, I think) instead of the cheaper 150 strand wire. Personally? I'd prefer the lower strand count for the same cross sectional wire because it will take a lot more abuse when t comes to repeated bending. But it's a non-issue since if your ground wire is going through repeated bends, it's because your engine is bouncing on the pavement below your engine bay...that's baaaad.
But WHY do they claim to use stranded wire? Is it because of the more logical reason that it flexes better than solid wire? Nope! It's because they get more surface area which is needed (so they claim) because electrons only flow near the surface of a wire. Well, these guys have just enough information to be dangerous...and wrong. What they're taling about is called the skin effect, and it has practically no bearing in situations involving DC. In fact, it has barely more importance at high audio frequencies. Nice try guys...
Their system is a multi-point distribution system (which means all grounds come back to the same point, like a star) instead of those cheaper "ring" systems. Now what moron do YOU know that puts his entire ground system into a loop with only one contact point? Yet again, a non-issue.
They tested a 2002 S2000, and a few others cars, which for the life of me I can't remember what they were. If memory serves, ALL cars were only slightly modded (CAI, filters, etc.)
So, what did they gain from all of this "high-quality" wire? LOL, on the S2000, they gained a whopping 1.03 hp
OK, now lets' think about this. First off, these guys are actually assuming that 1 hp is significant and isn't a measurement that would most likley get lost in the numbers shuffle. Not to mention the fact that it took an hour or so to put this wire on, which, even with SAE correction factors, will have SOME sort of an effect on the numbers. And come on guys, .03? I never realized anyone had such sensitive equipment that they could reliably measure 1/100th of a hp 
To be fair, I remember one of the other cars gaining a 7 hp jump in power. But, if memory serves again, it was also an older car. Obviously an older car is going to have an older grounding system, which WILL deteriorate over time. The funny thing is, though, that you could revitalize your old ground system by merely cleaning off the contact points of the wire and reinstalling the SAME WIRE! It's oxidation at the connecting points that causes a loss of power, not oxidation of the wire itself.
They made an interesting final comment..."If these cars were more heavily modded, you would definitely see a larger gain with this system." My reply to that is "Well DUH!" If you're losing 3% of 200 hp due to an oxidized ground, you gain that 3% back when you clean off the oxidation. Increase the hp by 100 hp, and you STILL gain that 3% back, regardless, but now it's 3% of 300 hp.
Sometimes I wonder if these guys are spending too much time near the exhaust with the car running
Comments/counter-arguments are welcome...
The story starts off with the usual "We got a call from these guys who said blah blah blah..." That's when the grand claims come in. First off, they brag about how their wires are made from copper instead of aluminum, like some "other" systems. Long story short, I actually agree with them on this point because copper DOES have a lower resistance per cross-sectional area than aluminum. But who do you know that uses aluminum for such short runs ANYWAY?! OK, this is the ONLY point were I agreed with what was in that article.
Next, they talked about how the copper wire was 99.999999999 yadda yadda yadda % oxygen free. So what? You look at the ground cable for Romex (what they wire houses with) and you'll find the same percentage of pure copper. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but all of that wires comes from the same few drawing dies in the same few factories. But somehow theirs becomes special when they wrap it in a pretty (and expensive) box. Go figure!
They make their wire out of 450 strands (don't remember the exact number, but that's actually pretty close, I think) instead of the cheaper 150 strand wire. Personally? I'd prefer the lower strand count for the same cross sectional wire because it will take a lot more abuse when t comes to repeated bending. But it's a non-issue since if your ground wire is going through repeated bends, it's because your engine is bouncing on the pavement below your engine bay...that's baaaad.
But WHY do they claim to use stranded wire? Is it because of the more logical reason that it flexes better than solid wire? Nope! It's because they get more surface area which is needed (so they claim) because electrons only flow near the surface of a wire. Well, these guys have just enough information to be dangerous...and wrong. What they're taling about is called the skin effect, and it has practically no bearing in situations involving DC. In fact, it has barely more importance at high audio frequencies. Nice try guys...
Their system is a multi-point distribution system (which means all grounds come back to the same point, like a star) instead of those cheaper "ring" systems. Now what moron do YOU know that puts his entire ground system into a loop with only one contact point? Yet again, a non-issue.
They tested a 2002 S2000, and a few others cars, which for the life of me I can't remember what they were. If memory serves, ALL cars were only slightly modded (CAI, filters, etc.)
So, what did they gain from all of this "high-quality" wire? LOL, on the S2000, they gained a whopping 1.03 hp
OK, now lets' think about this. First off, these guys are actually assuming that 1 hp is significant and isn't a measurement that would most likley get lost in the numbers shuffle. Not to mention the fact that it took an hour or so to put this wire on, which, even with SAE correction factors, will have SOME sort of an effect on the numbers. And come on guys, .03? I never realized anyone had such sensitive equipment that they could reliably measure 1/100th of a hp To be fair, I remember one of the other cars gaining a 7 hp jump in power. But, if memory serves again, it was also an older car. Obviously an older car is going to have an older grounding system, which WILL deteriorate over time. The funny thing is, though, that you could revitalize your old ground system by merely cleaning off the contact points of the wire and reinstalling the SAME WIRE! It's oxidation at the connecting points that causes a loss of power, not oxidation of the wire itself.
They made an interesting final comment..."If these cars were more heavily modded, you would definitely see a larger gain with this system." My reply to that is "Well DUH!" If you're losing 3% of 200 hp due to an oxidized ground, you gain that 3% back when you clean off the oxidation. Increase the hp by 100 hp, and you STILL gain that 3% back, regardless, but now it's 3% of 300 hp.
Sometimes I wonder if these guys are spending too much time near the exhaust with the car running
Comments/counter-arguments are welcome...
11-22-2002, 12:07 PM
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ahahahahaaa too funny, DC current travelling near the surface only. Skin Effect is only a problem with HIGH frequency...ie many, many MHz. I even question this in regular audio spectrum.
Btw, 1 hp out of 200 = 0.5% which could easily be a measurement error!
Proceed with caution when you invest in stereo equipment/accessories...things are not always as them seem and like MacGyver says...a little information IS dangerous.
The old saying always holds...don't believe everything you read....
Btw, 1 hp out of 200 = 0.5% which could easily be a measurement error!
Proceed with caution when you invest in stereo equipment/accessories...things are not always as them seem and like MacGyver says...a little information IS dangerous.
The old saying always holds...don't believe everything you read....
11-22-2002, 12:08 PM
#4
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My comment.............GET A JOB DAN! 
Sorry couldn't help that.
Hells bells we put things on our cars that we "think" make power but don't. Guess the same methodology is employed here.
Stickers make your car faster too right? Especially that TYPE-R plate really kicks the car into the high end HP range.
Power wire is pretty much all the same. Some bend easier than others especially in the 4 and 2 aug levels!
Sorry couldn't help that.Hells bells we put things on our cars that we "think" make power but don't. Guess the same methodology is employed here.
Stickers make your car faster too right? Especially that TYPE-R plate really kicks the car into the high end HP range.
Power wire is pretty much all the same. Some bend easier than others especially in the 4 and 2 aug levels!
11-22-2002, 04:10 PM
#5
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Couldn't agree more. A friend was kind enough to give me a set of competing wires to try out many months ago. As a BSEE, I was pretty skeptical of any benefit, and there was none.
On the whole measurement issue, I have one of the more accurate (and repeatable) dynos available for chassis work. The dyno itself is only guaranteed to 0.3% accuracy. When you add in engine variables, you can easily see 1% fluctuation with no other changes (even constant coolant temps). On a roller dyno, work in the issues like tire inflation, etc. and the %'s get larger if you aren't careful.
UL
On the whole measurement issue, I have one of the more accurate (and repeatable) dynos available for chassis work. The dyno itself is only guaranteed to 0.3% accuracy. When you add in engine variables, you can easily see 1% fluctuation with no other changes (even constant coolant temps). On a roller dyno, work in the issues like tire inflation, etc. and the %'s get larger if you aren't careful.
UL
11-22-2002, 04:44 PM
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Kind of like the whole High End Audiophile scene. People can actually be convinced that their high end amplifiers sound better with cement blocks on top of them and the like.
They hate it when you tell them the Emperor has no clothes.
They hate it when you tell them the Emperor has no clothes.
11-22-2002, 04:50 PM
#7
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Jim, maybe I should get a job debunking the magazine articles God knows it would pay better than what I'm making now. Let's see, twice of $0 is what?
matrix, the skin effect does start to have an effect after a few kHz (surprisingly enough), but the effect is SO small as to be negligable. You don't get above the 1% range until into the MHz, as you suggested.
And yes, I was bored, my other half was busy taking in the magazines, so what was a guy to do? I saw the article, and with all of the talk on here of late about these systems and how much power they're supposed to free up, I couldn't help but read it. I think the part that makes me roll my eyes the most isn't that they got almost every reason to buy these things wrong, I expect that; but that their conclusions were to still buy these things, in SPITE of the fact that they only freed up hp that was measured below the threshold of the dyno's precision.
Anyway, I hope that this thread will be something easy to point to when the next newbie says "I just found these cool wires for $100...do you think they really work?!"
God knows it would pay better than what I'm making now. Let's see, twice of $0 is what?matrix, the skin effect does start to have an effect after a few kHz (surprisingly enough), but the effect is SO small as to be negligable. You don't get above the 1% range until into the MHz, as you suggested.
And yes, I was bored, my other half was busy taking in the magazines, so what was a guy to do? I saw the article, and with all of the talk on here of late about these systems and how much power they're supposed to free up, I couldn't help but read it. I think the part that makes me roll my eyes the most isn't that they got almost every reason to buy these things wrong, I expect that; but that their conclusions were to still buy these things, in SPITE of the fact that they only freed up hp that was measured below the threshold of the dyno's precision.
Anyway, I hope that this thread will be something easy to point to when the next newbie says "I just found these cool wires for $100...do you think they really work?!"
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11-22-2002, 05:30 PM
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Any ac signal will have some skin affect, but @ 1 Ghz it only adds about 1 dB of additional resistance, so what is that going to be at 20K hz? Not even worth considering imo.
11-25-2002, 07:15 AM
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Not to get too off the mark here. But, I thought audiophiles were out to lunch when they said speaker wire makes a difference. I now know I was wrong.
Will speaker wire make a difference in a $500 or $1000 system? No. But when you get into serious systems ($40-100K and up) with huge current demands, it makes a big difference).
Will speaker wire make a difference in a $500 or $1000 system? No. But when you get into serious systems ($40-100K and up) with huge current demands, it makes a big difference).
11-25-2002, 10:08 AM
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phaco, you're confusing wire construction/type with current-carrying capability. Audiophiles love to believe that the construction of the wire (#strands, how they're wrapped around each other, etc.), but it's complete crap. Would you expect the drivetrain from an S2000 to handle the load placed upon it by a top-fuel dragster? Not likely, therefore you cannot expect a 16 Guage wire to handle the load of a 10,000 Watt stereo. The lesson to be learned here is, use thicker cable, not find a better style of cable. If it weren't for the nice bit of shielding I get from thick twisted pair wire, I would gladly use Romex to power my speakers...they're thick enough to handle some good juice, and it's one HELL of a lot cheaper than that "high-quality" stuff they sell for $2/foot at audio stores.
I've even seen articles that purport the TYPE of metal in your PC board traces in the amplifier can color the music....I've never read more crap in one article in my life. FYI, Gold was obviously chosen as the metal of choice...it's a great conductor, but it certainly doesn't color your music
I've even seen articles that purport the TYPE of metal in your PC board traces in the amplifier can color the music....I've never read more crap in one article in my life. FYI, Gold was obviously chosen as the metal of choice...it's a great conductor, but it certainly doesn't color your music