Pictures of Metal in My Oil Pan...
05-03-2012, 06:00 AM
#12
Moderator
Put a long penlight up into the underside of the cylinders. Look for black marks on the cylinder walls below the piston skirts.
If so, find an engine. It will not be worth saving.
If so, find an engine. It will not be worth saving.
05-03-2012, 06:08 AM
#13
Moderator
The motor needs to be removed and completely gutted. Those filings will be everywhere, including on top of the oil jet bolts. This usually results in scored cylinders. I have seen a few S2000 engines with that amount of shavings in the pan. None of them were salvageable. The thrust surfaces of the block were wiped.
My honest input is to find a low mile motor, unless you find a competent machine shop that has done FRM LINERS IN THE PAST and has been able to properly build the motor to a point where the new rings can seat and it doesnt smoke.
I have had calls around the country from engine builders asking why the motor smokes after a new rebuild. If you have a CAT on the car, it will mask the smoke.
It appears the success rate for FRM rebuilds is very low.
My honest input is to find a low mile motor, unless you find a competent machine shop that has done FRM LINERS IN THE PAST and has been able to properly build the motor to a point where the new rings can seat and it doesnt smoke.
I have had calls around the country from engine builders asking why the motor smokes after a new rebuild. If you have a CAT on the car, it will mask the smoke.
It appears the success rate for FRM rebuilds is very low.
05-03-2012, 06:42 AM
#15
This is sad to see. I was hoping based on your other thread you would get out with minimal damage! Now I am for sure going to get UOAs done on my oil changes to keep up with what's going on inside my motor. Good information from billman in his last post. I never thought about that being an issue on a rebuild.
05-03-2012, 08:11 AM
#16
Thread Starter
Sorry to hear this Joey. After reviewing your last two UOA's, I'd say the problem started to occur sometime between the two as evidenced by the significant Fe/Pb/Cu wear metals increase. You're just finding yourself at the final bearing failure stage right now. Not sure why the oil starvation occured...maybe you could have the pump tested when you have it out. Hopefully, the rebuild will go quickly and you'll back in your car soon!
05-03-2012, 08:21 AM
#17
Thread Starter
Thanks for the continued replies from everyone, and thank you Bill for your opinion. I'll start looking for a replacement. Would my top end be okay, I was going to measure the cam lobes to see if they have worn, should I look for a replacement block or entire engine ?.
On the point that Billman250 made, I didn't find a speck of metal on the top end I've looked and felt around everywhere on the top end. When I dumped the oil in a clear container I only found one flake of metal, I was kind of happy at that point as it wasn't saturated with metal filings and I thought it was a good sign, but sadly all the metal was sitting in the oil pan in bigger pieces. I've kept an oil sample which I was going to get analyzed before I saw what was in the pan
Thanks again.
On the point that Billman250 made, I didn't find a speck of metal on the top end I've looked and felt around everywhere on the top end. When I dumped the oil in a clear container I only found one flake of metal, I was kind of happy at that point as it wasn't saturated with metal filings and I thought it was a good sign, but sadly all the metal was sitting in the oil pan in bigger pieces. I've kept an oil sample which I was going to get analyzed before I saw what was in the pan
Thanks again.
05-03-2012, 10:14 AM
#18
Moderator
In all the damaged engines I've seen, the cylinder head and cams/towers have never suffered any damage and were re-used on a different short block with no issues.
All done many years ago.
All done many years ago.
05-03-2012, 11:10 AM
#19
Thread Starter
Thanks Bill, I'm thinking mine is salvageable in tha regard, thanks for the information. I will do a check on all the parts though.
05-03-2012, 01:05 PM
#20
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I'm using my 145k km old MY'00 head for about 2 years now.
Engine runs fine.
SpitfireS, the odd thing about this whole event is I had a track day last fall in 2011. There was no funny engine stuff going on at all the car ran great, never seen an oil light or a CEL, no engine cut. I drove home after the event 2 hours on the highway and everything was good. I did get high lead and iron readings in my UOA after I dumped that oil a month later which you may remember. I have since put 1000 miles on the car and the car has driven perfect the entire time, it honestly felt like I had a brand new engine that just rolled off the lot, lots of power, very smooth, no oil burning. I never over-revved the engine.
Even during this last event all we had was the (*) engine cut out around 8600 rpms before the limiter would come on (*) which seemed strange so we decided to turn the car around and drive home about 2 miles. On the drive home the engine still seemed fine at lower rpms, i did notice a bit more vibration through the clutch pedal during engagement at the friction point. Having a hardtop on the car I did notice a bit more vibration in the cabin and the shifter had a small rattle to it, but it was all very slight. The engine oil light came on at the first stoplight we hit and only at idle, it would go out as soon as the rpms went over 900 rpms. When I dumped this oil I only got one metal flake in the clear drain container that I used, goes to show how much metal gets stuck in the pan during an oil change. I couldn't believe it when I dumped the pan.
Nothing about our driving or engine performance would lead me to suspect a major issue. I honestly feel the oil pump has caused this issue, but I have no proof.
Thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate everyone's opinion.
Even during this last event all we had was the (*) engine cut out around 8600 rpms before the limiter would come on (*) which seemed strange so we decided to turn the car around and drive home about 2 miles. On the drive home the engine still seemed fine at lower rpms, i did notice a bit more vibration through the clutch pedal during engagement at the friction point. Having a hardtop on the car I did notice a bit more vibration in the cabin and the shifter had a small rattle to it, but it was all very slight. The engine oil light came on at the first stoplight we hit and only at idle, it would go out as soon as the rpms went over 900 rpms. When I dumped this oil I only got one metal flake in the clear drain container that I used, goes to show how much metal gets stuck in the pan during an oil change. I couldn't believe it when I dumped the pan.
Nothing about our driving or engine performance would lead me to suspect a major issue. I honestly feel the oil pump has caused this issue, but I have no proof.
Thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate everyone's opinion.
I really hope you will find out what the cause was.
It will scare a lot of people if you find nothing, because this will make them think you can not take the car out for fun trackdays or spirited drives anymore.
"If you do so you're risking the engine"
As far as I can tell you have done nothing wrong.
How much different is a trackday compared to a spirited canyon drive?
I mean, that is what the car was designed to do, I'm sure everyone remembers the Youtube video of the prototype on the Nurburgring.
You're supposed to (be able to) do this with the car!
Yes, I remember your post about the higher ppm levels a sI replyed in it.
In your first post about this problem I mentioned you did not mention about the track being known for oil starvation.
As you have said now that you never noticed anything during the track day itself and during the 1000 miles after it, I'm back at my original thoughts.
This did not start or happen at the track.
You have dropped the pan now right?
No visible strange things?
ALL the updated oil jets still in place, etc ect?
As mentioned above, IMO the a-little-higher-than-normal ppm's of copper and lead you found in your UOA after the track day was NOT the start of this.
How many ppm's can you create out of 1 (one!) flake you found in the pan, I'm guessing millions.
As far as I know journal bearings: as long as they have oil delivered to them they run.
It was the lack of oil that fried the bearing(s) at 8600 rpm.
It was not the extra "play" by a couple of ppm's of bearing material missing.
And as you found out as well it only takes a second of no oil at those revs to do it.
Just for the record: wat oil were you using during the track day?
And during the oil starvation?
So far no one has come up with the "Oh yeah.. you should not use this thin 0W or 5W-30 on the track, you should use 10W-30, it is much thicker"
I'm sure some are thinking it though.
Keep us posted.
