Performance Comparing 16", 17" Rims.
02-21-2001, 08:39 AM
#41
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Hi Barry-
Concerning your need for a definitive answer...
That's a VERY hard question for anyone to answer. For your needs, I would assume you would want maximum lateral grip for street use. To me, that usually means the widest tires you can fit with a reasonable sidewall for rim protection, while keeping the f/r tire width ratio as measured physically on the wheel. Since the S02PP OEM tire has narrower rain channels than the standard S02PP, that muddies the water even more...
Since I don't know if the S02PP is available in wider sizes with the W rating, I don't know how this can be investigated without some trial and error. When I had my car in Hong Kong we drove the hills at night all the time, and we usually ended up using R compound tires- Dunlop D01J, Bridgestone RE540, Toyo Proxes F1S-R, Yokohama Advan 032R (ss compound, H is crap) because the standard street tires would not hold up to our abuse. Each of these tires would handle differently and we would argue all the time which one was the best. We ended up agreeing that the best tire was the one that gave each individual the most confidence, and surprisingly, everyone used a different tire! We also tuned the suspension for the tires- usually adding as much as 3 degrees of negative camber along with other adjustments depending on the car. Of course, we wore out tires every other week, but that was the price for safe, FAST, driving. I don't know if there's such a "silver bullet" for an S2000 driven daily in the US- we need to compromise more towards legal tread depth and wear durablity. Usually a top of the line street tire from a well respected manufacturer gives good results, but others here have said otherwise.
Functionally, you don't need larger rims- going to a tire with an even stiffer sidewall will give you quicker steering reaction, and the stock wheel size clears the brake calipers with no problem (duh!). If you go with wider tires you'll need wider rims to support the sidewalls properly. This has a huge effect on how the car feels. Also, you need to figure out what tire pressures work well for you when you have your new setup. Then there's... etc. You can see where this will go- there's more to this topic than a simple answer.
I'm still going to use the stock wheels with Hoosier's for the track (cost effective setup) if that matters to any of you. For the street I have the 17" Mugen MF10 wheels and Bridgestone tires (hopefully S03, if not then S02)... I think the 17" wheels are a good compromise between upgrading the look of the car while protecting the rim with a substantial sidewall. Heck, I only use 18" wheeels if I can use a 40% sidewall. I think a 40% sidewall is the limit for me, for comfort and rim protection.
In fact- that's the best answer I can think of- you have to compromise... Or run a DOT R compound tire, that works for you, all the time!
Concerning your need for a definitive answer...
That's a VERY hard question for anyone to answer. For your needs, I would assume you would want maximum lateral grip for street use. To me, that usually means the widest tires you can fit with a reasonable sidewall for rim protection, while keeping the f/r tire width ratio as measured physically on the wheel. Since the S02PP OEM tire has narrower rain channels than the standard S02PP, that muddies the water even more...
Since I don't know if the S02PP is available in wider sizes with the W rating, I don't know how this can be investigated without some trial and error. When I had my car in Hong Kong we drove the hills at night all the time, and we usually ended up using R compound tires- Dunlop D01J, Bridgestone RE540, Toyo Proxes F1S-R, Yokohama Advan 032R (ss compound, H is crap) because the standard street tires would not hold up to our abuse. Each of these tires would handle differently and we would argue all the time which one was the best. We ended up agreeing that the best tire was the one that gave each individual the most confidence, and surprisingly, everyone used a different tire! We also tuned the suspension for the tires- usually adding as much as 3 degrees of negative camber along with other adjustments depending on the car. Of course, we wore out tires every other week, but that was the price for safe, FAST, driving. I don't know if there's such a "silver bullet" for an S2000 driven daily in the US- we need to compromise more towards legal tread depth and wear durablity. Usually a top of the line street tire from a well respected manufacturer gives good results, but others here have said otherwise.
Functionally, you don't need larger rims- going to a tire with an even stiffer sidewall will give you quicker steering reaction, and the stock wheel size clears the brake calipers with no problem (duh!). If you go with wider tires you'll need wider rims to support the sidewalls properly. This has a huge effect on how the car feels. Also, you need to figure out what tire pressures work well for you when you have your new setup. Then there's... etc. You can see where this will go- there's more to this topic than a simple answer.
I'm still going to use the stock wheels with Hoosier's for the track (cost effective setup) if that matters to any of you. For the street I have the 17" Mugen MF10 wheels and Bridgestone tires (hopefully S03, if not then S02)... I think the 17" wheels are a good compromise between upgrading the look of the car while protecting the rim with a substantial sidewall. Heck, I only use 18" wheeels if I can use a 40% sidewall. I think a 40% sidewall is the limit for me, for comfort and rim protection.
In fact- that's the best answer I can think of- you have to compromise... Or run a DOT R compound tire, that works for you, all the time!
02-21-2001, 09:57 AM
#42
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Originally posted by pfb
quote:
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Originally posted by Barry WY
...is there a clearly better choice for the corners than stock SO2s on stock wheels
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For your application, I don't think so. You've already shed some weight with the JDM wheels, S02's are arguably one of the best dry weather non-race tires available, and Honda has custom speced them to match the S2K's handling. Maybe play with the pressure a bit. My experience is that higher pressures really makes a positive difference, due to less roll in the tire.
Once someone goes through the effort of sourcing a perfect offset, perfect width, lightweight 17" wheel with tires matched to the S2000's handling, likely through a process of trial and error, it might be a better option.
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That answer helps, thanks, Pfb.
Well, not because I have them (: and I've debated this myself. But I think Mugen's MF-10s ARE made to be the perfect upgrade. Absolutely correct offset (52 +59), to keep the in wheel geometry honda engineers designed. Plus while being forged for super strength they are also very lightweight. IMO you can't ask for a more custom application match.As for tires, I never liked the so2's that much myself and assuming you are doing a wheel upgrade I suspect you plan on changing your suspension as well in the future. The point being so2's are matched for stock when other variables might change (i.e. x brace) so you might want tires with less stickiness up font than stock. I guess you open a can of worms with a wheel upgrade like almost everything else...IMHO unless you stay stock everywhere on your car, keeping so2's is'nt of consequence anymore. I'd get lighter rims in the correct offsets and do some tire reseach based on your needs. Take care,
marcus
Originally posted by pfb
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Barry WY
...is there a clearly better choice for the corners than stock SO2s on stock wheels
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For your application, I don't think so. You've already shed some weight with the JDM wheels, S02's are arguably one of the best dry weather non-race tires available, and Honda has custom speced them to match the S2K's handling. Maybe play with the pressure a bit. My experience is that higher pressures really makes a positive difference, due to less roll in the tire.
Once someone goes through the effort of sourcing a perfect offset, perfect width, lightweight 17" wheel with tires matched to the S2000's handling, likely through a process of trial and error, it might be a better option.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That answer helps, thanks, Pfb.
Well, not because I have them (: and I've debated this myself. But I think Mugen's MF-10s ARE made to be the perfect upgrade. Absolutely correct offset (52 +59), to keep the in wheel geometry honda engineers designed. Plus while being forged for super strength they are also very lightweight. IMO you can't ask for a more custom application match.As for tires, I never liked the so2's that much myself and assuming you are doing a wheel upgrade I suspect you plan on changing your suspension as well in the future. The point being so2's are matched for stock when other variables might change (i.e. x brace) so you might want tires with less stickiness up font than stock. I guess you open a can of worms with a wheel upgrade like almost everything else...IMHO unless you stay stock everywhere on your car, keeping so2's is'nt of consequence anymore. I'd get lighter rims in the correct offsets and do some tire reseach based on your needs. Take care,
marcus
02-21-2001, 11:27 AM
#43
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X brace affects this too?
I didn't know that.
I just got my Spoon X brace from Mingster a couple of days ago and was going to put it on tomorrow, along with the Neuspeed strut tower brace.
It never occurred to me that these would affect wheel/tire/suspension decisions.
Barry
I didn't know that.
I just got my Spoon X brace from Mingster a couple of days ago and was going to put it on tomorrow, along with the Neuspeed strut tower brace.
It never occurred to me that these would affect wheel/tire/suspension decisions.
Barry
02-21-2001, 08:02 PM
#44
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Hi Barry,
Definitely....and sort of. I guess I should be more specific. In your case you are getting an x brace and stb. Two products desiged to increase the torsional rigidity of your car, and lessen flex.This is ideal in theory since it allows the suspension to do all the work and not the chassis. Therefore giving you very precise control regardless of condition.
In your case after you "fortify" your front end your stock suspension should be working a little bit harder to absorb some of the energy no longer soaked up by the chassis. (I think after your install you will feel your car has less oversteer) But you can see where I am headed with this right?
I don't know if this would neccesarily affect your decision on suspension tires wheels, but it does affect the dynamics of the car. Anyway, I tend to think of every component as a link in the chain, one affecting another. That's why I said it's like opening a can of worms since you have to balance it all.power vs braking vs suspension etc...
I hope this helps. I am certainly no expert, but have
learned my innocent power upgrade lead to 15 more modifications..(:
Regards,
marcus
p.s. I was thinking about your requirements, maybe your perfect wheel might be the new 17 inch one from honda?
[Edited by viscreal2000 on 02-21-2001 at 09:07 PM]
Definitely....and sort of. I guess I should be more specific. In your case you are getting an x brace and stb. Two products desiged to increase the torsional rigidity of your car, and lessen flex.This is ideal in theory since it allows the suspension to do all the work and not the chassis. Therefore giving you very precise control regardless of condition.
In your case after you "fortify" your front end your stock suspension should be working a little bit harder to absorb some of the energy no longer soaked up by the chassis. (I think after your install you will feel your car has less oversteer) But you can see where I am headed with this right?
I don't know if this would neccesarily affect your decision on suspension tires wheels, but it does affect the dynamics of the car. Anyway, I tend to think of every component as a link in the chain, one affecting another. That's why I said it's like opening a can of worms since you have to balance it all.power vs braking vs suspension etc...
I hope this helps. I am certainly no expert, but have
learned my innocent power upgrade lead to 15 more modifications..(:
Regards,
marcus
p.s. I was thinking about your requirements, maybe your perfect wheel might be the new 17 inch one from honda?
[Edited by viscreal2000 on 02-21-2001 at 09:07 PM]
02-22-2001, 07:35 AM
#45
pfb,
You should take a look at my set up if you are ever in Denver. I run 18" wheels but they only weigh 19 pounds a peice for the rears (10") and 17.5 pounds for the fronts (8") . The main weight savings is in the tire (Pirelli p-zero). This means that my set up has almost the exact same weight as stock, almost the sme rotational diameter, and less rotational mass at the outer edge, not to mention better handeling. I have not noticed any loss in power (acceleration) either.
You should take a look at my set up if you are ever in Denver. I run 18" wheels but they only weigh 19 pounds a peice for the rears (10") and 17.5 pounds for the fronts (8") . The main weight savings is in the tire (Pirelli p-zero). This means that my set up has almost the exact same weight as stock, almost the sme rotational diameter, and less rotational mass at the outer edge, not to mention better handeling. I have not noticed any loss in power (acceleration) either.
02-22-2001, 08:04 AM
#48
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Reverend-
That's not the entire equation.
I stated earlier, as did others, that weight savings in the tires is more important when considering changing the moment of inertia.
Yes- the wheels weigh slightly more. But- if the tires weigh significantly less, which mdigrappa stated, is acceleration numbers should improve because of several factors- less sidewall deflection twist, and lower tire weight. The farther away from the center of rotation, the more significant the weight change is to acceleration numbers. This is my real world experience, not some calculation from hypothetical numbers.
That's not the entire equation.
I stated earlier, as did others, that weight savings in the tires is more important when considering changing the moment of inertia.
Yes- the wheels weigh slightly more. But- if the tires weigh significantly less, which mdigrappa stated, is acceleration numbers should improve because of several factors- less sidewall deflection twist, and lower tire weight. The farther away from the center of rotation, the more significant the weight change is to acceleration numbers. This is my real world experience, not some calculation from hypothetical numbers.
02-22-2001, 11:59 AM
#50
pfb
oops, had I known it would have been this early I would have put my car back together and met you downtown. In response to the Rev- my point was that if the center of the wheel contains the bulk of the weight (it does)and the outer section (tire, rim) contains significantly less weight than the stock the benefit lies with the larger wheel accordig to all of the logic posted on this board. My contact patch has also increased (width-wise)increasing the grip off the line and at v-tech (have not been into v-tech much thoug my car is still new) = more forcefull (assometer) acceleration. In reality the only reason I bought the 18" wheels is because the new brakes I ordered won't fit under anything else, and 18s look awesome
oops, had I known it would have been this early I would have put my car back together and met you downtown. In response to the Rev- my point was that if the center of the wheel contains the bulk of the weight (it does)and the outer section (tire, rim) contains significantly less weight than the stock the benefit lies with the larger wheel accordig to all of the logic posted on this board. My contact patch has also increased (width-wise)increasing the grip off the line and at v-tech (have not been into v-tech much thoug my car is still new) = more forcefull (assometer) acceleration. In reality the only reason I bought the 18" wheels is because the new brakes I ordered won't fit under anything else, and 18s look awesome