Old school "new" MTF in S2000
08-13-2010, 03:11 PM
#1
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Old school "new" MTF in S2000
Well, I decided to go experimental on my tranny today. I believe Honda used to use 10W-30 engine oil in their manual transmissions before they invented MTF I and II. So after I changed my differential oil with LE1605 today, I drained the one month old MTF II from the tranny and filled it with Schaeffers #703:
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/703.pdf
I just took it for a 10 minute drive and it felt really good. I mean really really good. All summer here in Texas I've felt like the MTF II was just not up to the task at hand with high 90's and sometimes 100F temps.
I'll update as I get some more time behind the wheel and give you a better review.
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/703.pdf
I just took it for a 10 minute drive and it felt really good. I mean really really good. All summer here in Texas I've felt like the MTF II was just not up to the task at hand with high 90's and sometimes 100F temps.
I'll update as I get some more time behind the wheel and give you a better review.
08-13-2010, 03:17 PM
#2
Originally Posted by INDYMAC,Aug 13 2010, 03:11 PM
Well, I decided to go experimental on my tranny today. I believe Honda used to use 10W-30 engine oil in their manual transmissions before they invented MTF I and II.
08-13-2010, 04:42 PM
#3
how do the viscosities compare between the two fluids ?, that would be interesting to know.
08-13-2010, 06:49 PM
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I'm really looking forward to your 500 and 2,000 mile review. My 50:50 blend Amsoil/Redline mtl is blowing after 4,000 miles. I could feel it getting worse at 2k. So far worse than GMSMFM. Some folks are trying a japanese spec oil too.
08-13-2010, 09:05 PM
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08-14-2010, 02:13 AM
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19000 km on the Amsoil MTF now (11,8 k miles) and it's still shifting nice.
IMO, no matter what oil you use, its always going to shift a bit notchy at lower revs (idle-3000 rpm, remember, the gearbox is designed to shift (best?) at 9000 rpm) especially when trying to shift too fast.
Even when you know the whole clutch is installed correctly:
Fresh fluid, no air, not too much mechanical linkage play, smooth & greased push rod / fork, greased throwout groove & fork fingers and most important: greased clutch disk splines.
No oil will be able to compensate for installation ... (what's a nice word?
).. disadvantages or normal build-up of clutch dust - over time/milage - on parts that need to be able to slide.
My manual states that its ok to use engine oil "vorübergehend" (for the time being) but one should expect a higher shift force.
The Schaeffer is a "para-synthetic" (never heared that term before) grp III and II blend and we know you (INDYMAC) like dino for gear oil
So be as unbiasd as you can be with the review..
IMO, no matter what oil you use, its always going to shift a bit notchy at lower revs (idle-3000 rpm, remember, the gearbox is designed to shift (best?) at 9000 rpm) especially when trying to shift too fast.
Even when you know the whole clutch is installed correctly:
Fresh fluid, no air, not too much mechanical linkage play, smooth & greased push rod / fork, greased throwout groove & fork fingers and most important: greased clutch disk splines.
No oil will be able to compensate for installation ... (what's a nice word?
).. disadvantages or normal build-up of clutch dust - over time/milage - on parts that need to be able to slide.My manual states that its ok to use engine oil "vorübergehend" (for the time being) but one should expect a higher shift force.
The Schaeffer is a "para-synthetic" (never heared that term before) grp III and II blend and we know you (INDYMAC) like dino for gear oil
So be as unbiasd as you can be with the review..
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08-14-2010, 02:16 AM
#8
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Before I drained the fluids (tranny and diff), I drove the car quite a bit to get the fluids hot (no problem on a 100F sunny day). I then let the car sit for 2 hours before jacking it up and draining. I waited 2 hours because I don't like to burn my fingers! The tranny fluid was like water coming out (very thin). It only had 500 miles on it too.
The MTF II VOA I did recently shows a starting viscosity of 7.5 cSt at 100C. The UOA I did recently after 8707 miles on the fluid shows a 5.99 cSt at 100C.
The Schaeffers #703 viscosity starts around 10 cSt at 100C, and I expect to see it shear to around 9.2 cSt at 100C by the end of an OCI. That's OK and may actually be beneficial for the cooler winter months.
The reasons I decided to try Schaeffers #703 are:
-The owners manual says we can use 10W-30 engine oil in a pinch.
-I had 2 quarts on hand already in my garage. There's not much else you can use 2 qts for except my riding lawnmower.
-Schaeffers has a 1a copper corrosion rating (the best), so it should be safe for yellow metals (brass synchro's).
-It is loaded with friction modifiers (micron moly and penetro). It is a true enhanced lubricant.
-It has a standard API SM detergent/dispersant/AW (ZDDP) additive package for engine oil.
The VOA of MTF II is difficult to interpret because it only shows metals that were picked up by the spectrometer. The only things that show up are very high levels of Calcium and ZDDP. The Schaeffers doesn't have those levels of additives, only about 1/2 to 2/3 the levels that MTF II has.
I'll let everyone know how it goes after a few miles and a UOA. Remember that this is just an experiment on my part, and I'm not recommending that anyone else try it yet.
The MTF II VOA I did recently shows a starting viscosity of 7.5 cSt at 100C. The UOA I did recently after 8707 miles on the fluid shows a 5.99 cSt at 100C.
The Schaeffers #703 viscosity starts around 10 cSt at 100C, and I expect to see it shear to around 9.2 cSt at 100C by the end of an OCI. That's OK and may actually be beneficial for the cooler winter months.
The reasons I decided to try Schaeffers #703 are:
-The owners manual says we can use 10W-30 engine oil in a pinch.
-I had 2 quarts on hand already in my garage. There's not much else you can use 2 qts for except my riding lawnmower.
-Schaeffers has a 1a copper corrosion rating (the best), so it should be safe for yellow metals (brass synchro's).
-It is loaded with friction modifiers (micron moly and penetro). It is a true enhanced lubricant.
-It has a standard API SM detergent/dispersant/AW (ZDDP) additive package for engine oil.
The VOA of MTF II is difficult to interpret because it only shows metals that were picked up by the spectrometer. The only things that show up are very high levels of Calcium and ZDDP. The Schaeffers doesn't have those levels of additives, only about 1/2 to 2/3 the levels that MTF II has.
I'll let everyone know how it goes after a few miles and a UOA. Remember that this is just an experiment on my part, and I'm not recommending that anyone else try it yet.
08-14-2010, 02:41 AM
#9
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Thread Starter
[QUOTE=SpitfireS,Aug 14 2010, 05:13 AM] 19000 km on the Amsoil MTF now (11,8 k miles) and it's still shifting nice.
IMO, no matter what oil you use, its always going to shift a bit notchy at lower revs (idle-3000 rpm, remember, the gearbox is designed to shift (best?) at 9000 rpm) especially when trying to shift too fast.
Even when you know the whole clutch is installed correctly:
Fresh fluid, no air, not too much mechanical linkage play, smooth & greased push rod / fork, greased throwout groove & fork fingers and most important: greased clutch disk splines.
No oil will be able to compensate for installation ... (what's a nice word?
IMO, no matter what oil you use, its always going to shift a bit notchy at lower revs (idle-3000 rpm, remember, the gearbox is designed to shift (best?) at 9000 rpm) especially when trying to shift too fast.
Even when you know the whole clutch is installed correctly:
Fresh fluid, no air, not too much mechanical linkage play, smooth & greased push rod / fork, greased throwout groove & fork fingers and most important: greased clutch disk splines.
No oil will be able to compensate for installation ... (what's a nice word?
08-14-2010, 05:02 AM
#10
I'm surprised the Honda MTF is that thin in viscosity, I thought I've seen specs on it being a higher viscosity than that. I like that fact that it does have decent levels of additives compared to motor oil. So far my tranny shifts flawlessly at 55k miles on Honda MTF ( knock on wood), I'd be hesitant to try something else though I am not too crazy about the thin viscosity of this fluid as indicated in this thread by Indy.