Gotpepsi

It's not really obvious on the s2000. There are four locations for jack stands, two in front and two in back. The jack stands in front are located behind the front tire (as usual). But while you look under the car, you will see two ledges that look like they can function as jack points; however, that is not the case. Place the jack stands on the thicker slab of metal. Lots of people make that mistake.

There was also a thread on hand tightening oil filters, lots of opinions there. I anyways hand tight.. No problems so far, but others say it's dangerous to do so.

cosmomiller

I can do the entire enchilada with only the hood open and sliding an oil catch pan underneath. I drain the oil first-warm car-really well and that cools it off a bit when I go in, reach down and remove the filter.

In the picture, I am standing at the passenger front corner looking down and aft. The 'crown' top with the silver lever is pointing straight up. The 'top' of that crown (with the silver lever) is actually stainless steel. The drain opening is pointing at the right side front wheel. The drain opening is left of the "Made in Japan".

Sooner or later you are going to do oil change #2. If you have another 5 quart bottle on hand, it is much cheaper than individual bottles in the long run. It looks like this is going downhill on a "what oil is better" course but I have absolutely no decrease in oil consumption ever, not a single X on the stick. I have heard AP1s tend to go through oil compared to AP2s but that is unrelated to oil brand. I have an 09. I have 53 K miles, I will post a shot of the engine with the valve cover off so you can see how bad Mobil 1 can be.

TCT failures. Honda has an inferior part design. Those things fail no matter what brand of oil you put in the car. If you put a new OEM one in, it is a matter of time before it goes too. Billman250, a long time S2000 guru Jedi Master mechanic and moderator, makes a pretty nice replacement TCT and guarantees it for life. At 50K I preemptively installed one despite not having any symptoms. I never want to have an issue. Some people have installed Ballade ones too.

Fumoto. As I have the mentality of a pilot, I tend to research things a bit on critical items and the Fumoto was one of them. Millions are in use. With that many out there you can expect some failures. Statistically insignificant. I would like to know what kind of vehicle skinsfn36 was talking about when a local broke his with a rock. I don't offroad with my S so even if I do hit a rock it is unlikely to do damage. A rock is going to damage a tire or do body damage. If something can get up into the engine compartment and break that solid brass stub off, I have much bigger problems. In addition, there are several Fumoto knockoffs on the market. Cheaper made in China ones not as well made and Fumoto gets the blame for an inferior but similar product failure.

The valve cannot pop open in a random fashion; it requires a complex movement to open and then rotate. Nonetheless, Fumoto offers a safety clip on top of the thing. I see it as palliative and overkill.

Oil filter. The OEM filter has markings on it so you know how much to rotate it if you do not have a torque wrench. Yes, you begin the count when the gasket first makes contact with the engine. You will need some kind of a wrench to rotate it properly. It really cannot or should not be done by hand. I know some folks go for big off brand filters and some have straps/holdowns that you can safety wire to the engine preventing any filter rotation.

You will need a new crush washer for the oil drain bolt if you go that route, they usually include one at the dealer. Looking ahead, you might as well get the 2 diff and 2 trans crush washers for the time when you do those too.

An easy way to get the front end up is on 2X4s so you can squeeze a jack under the front lip and reach the center jack point. Jack stand it from there.

yamahaSHO

Mobil 1 is fine... As long as you don't get their Resource Conserving (or anyone brand's) oils (IE: 5w30). It'll shear quickly, likely be burned past the rings, and probably won't be your best option if you like to drive the car hard. It's also not a true synthetic (like most OTS "Fully Synthetic" oils). I personally use Motul 300v, but I track my car regularly.

On my last oil change, I changed out the pan for a baffled unit. After letting the oil drain for probably an hour while I worked on something else, there was this much oil left after I pulled the pan (car front wheels were on Race Ramps TrakJax - so not really that high off the ground):

MikeekiM

Sorry...I don't know what makes a motor oil "resource conserving"...can you help me on what this means?

I was not aware that M1 was a synthetic blend...I thought it was full synthetic... My bad...

Any opinion on Castrol Edge as a product?

cosmomiller

The United States has allowed a different definition for ingredients to be called synthetic here. SAE and API don't specify a precise definition. Synthetic means something else in Europe. Much of the controversy comes from Mobil 1s refusal to divulge its proprietary blend ingredients. Here 'synthetic' is really a marketing term.

This is from Mobil's website:

Synthetic motor oils (such as Mobil 1) contain more highly refined base oils than those used in conventional mineral oils, which can offer you better protection and performance. Synthetic oils provide a variety of benefits, such as excellent high- and low-temperature performance, that can provide excellent engine protection.

Note from me: (Both types of engine oil are made from crude oil that comes from the ground.)

The difference is that synthetic oils undergo numerous additional highly advanced distilling, refining, and purification processes - and therefore are of a higher purity and quality than conventional mineral oils. This not only removes more impurities from the original crude, it also enables the engineering of the lubricant's individual molecules to be uniform and consistent, tailored to meet the specific high-performance demands of modern engines. These customized molecules provide higher levels of protection and performance, even in extreme conditions.
The performance of synthetic motor oil is more robust, especially in terms of low-temperature pumpability, high-temperature stability, and protection against deposits. These attributes translate directly into less engine wear and longer engine life.
End quote.

Both Exxon and Mobil in the past have produced chemically synthetic base oils.
In case of Exxon they were mostly synthetic hindered esters.
In case of Mobil they were C10 based Poly-alpha-olefins (PAO).

Today ExxonMobil produces SpectraSyn in Beaumont Texas USA (Refinery) and Gravenchon France.

The product is C10 based PAO.

"Alkylated Naphthalene" under Synesstic Brand and Ester under Esterex Brand are made by associated company - ExxonMobil Chemical.

Amsoil of course likes to label their products with the Trademarked Slogan: "The First in Synthetics"

At the same time while proclaiming the benefits of "synthetic" Amsoil products, they only describe their benefits, but fail to define what "synthetics" are.

Following is statement about "synthetic" from Amsoil website:

Synthetic lubricants are chemically engineered to form pure lubricants. Synthetic lubricants contain no contaminants or molecules that don't serve a designed purpose. They are made from molecules that are saturated with a higher percentage of carbon-hydrogen bonds, leaving fewer sites to which other, harmful molecules can attach and attack the molecular composition of the oil. In addition, their smooth, uniform lubricating molecules slip easily across one another. In short, synthetics' versatility and pure, uniform molecular structure impart properties that provide superior friction-reduction, optimum fuel efficiency, maximum film strength and extreme-temperature performance conventional lubricants just can't touch.

Amsoil, from what I gather, l does not have and never had any capability both technologically and equipment wise to produce any lubricant base oil.

They simply re-package products that are bought in bulk from other companies, bottle them and put their own label on them.

While AMSOIL (originally AMZOIL) was proud to apply for US Trademark "The First in Synthetics" on August 17, 1994; which was eventually registered on January 28, 1997 (Registration Number 2033283), and while AMSOIL was always "claiming" to only have "synthetic" Motor Oil, it is interesting to note that the Trademark application specifically states: "para-synthetic lubricating oil" !

Further AMSOIL applied for yet another US Trademark registration for the same "slogan": "The First in Synthetics" on January 31, 2006; which was subsequently issued on February 20, 2007 (Registration Number 3210848), now covering other products, most of which have no connection to anything "synthetic" such as namely: "Automotive cleaning preparations".

The further degradation of the AMSOIL gospel resulted now in offering products made from API Group III base oils (XL) and even newer products (OE) that now preach the previously abhorred: "3,000 mile or 3 Month oil change interval " !

I happen to use AMSOIL myself for the diff and transmission fluid!! I have been pleased with the performance especially when the tranny warms up. Better the Honda MTF for me.

SHELL, Quaker State, Pennzoil, Jiffy Lube are brands and lubricants owned by Shell Oil.

Shell also only describes the benefits of "Synthetics" but also fails to define them.

Synthetic base oils give enhanced performance because they are manufactured using advanced chemical processes, so their molecular structure and hence, their properties, can be closely controlled. For example, fully synthetic oils are designed to flow more easily at start-up temperatures (which is when most wear occurs). They are more resistant to heat and more easily protected by antioxidant additives (oxidation is a natural degradation process that occurs in oil over time). They are also less volatile than mineral oils.
Shell also does not have any production capability to make any "synthetic" chemical products that are not made from petroleum crude.

All Motor Oils under brands that are owned or controlled by Shell are based on API Group III or API Group II+ Base Oils, even when they are labeled as "synthetic".

Shell however has mastered the additive chemistry to such extend that some of their "synthetic" labeled products are almost (but not quite) on par in performance with Motor Oils based on PAO or Ester chemistry.

Chevron is one of the few Oil Companies that used to have the capacity to make PAO based on C10, and it is the ONLY company in the World that made PAO based on C12.

The few products they do have with "synthetic" on the label, disclose the in the product MSDS composition as: "Highly refined mineral oil (C15 - C50) Mixture 60 - 100 % by weight".

The C10 and C12 PAO products sold under the SynFluid brand are now made by Chevron-Phillips in Cedar Bayou, Texas USA.

When you dissect things further, reading the fine print, do the math, many oils (M1) start out with a real base of synthetic and then have additives in a carrier oil that may or may not be synthetic. All in all, it comes to 15-20% of the oil is additives.

I need to look a little further but I think SynLube is 100% truly man made synthetic. You can also go to Europe and buy it. Sometimes you can find the Euro oil over here but it is pricey.


Here is a link to give you an idea how much of a tempest in a teapot this can be:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ASynthetic_oil


I found this timeline but have not checked it:

1877

Charles Friedler and James Mason Crafts synthesize the first "synthetic" hydrocarbons.

1913

Friedrich Bergius in Germany develops Hydrogenation process for production of synthetic oil from coal dust

1921

Standard Oil in USA produces one barrel of synthetic oil from one ton of shale rock

1921

Friedrich Bergius in Germany develops commercial process for hydrogenation of coal to synthetic oil

1925

In Germany Franz Fisher and Hans Tropsch develop Synthetic Oil industrial production process

1926

I.G. Farben acquired the patent rights to the Bergius hydrogenation process for production of synthetic oil from coal

1927

I.G. Farben's Leuna works start synthetic oil production

1929

Standard Oil of Indiana makes the first attempt at commercial development of synthetic hydrocarbons
Many gallons of synthetic oil were made by polymerization of different olefins.

1930-34

Union Carbide and Carbon Corp develop and investigate the applications of water soluble Polyalkylene Glycol (PAG)

1931

Nobel Prize for Chemistry:
Friedrich Bergius & Carl Bosch
Invention and development of chemical high pressure methods (used for synthetic oil production)

1932

I.G. Farben investment into synthetic fuels production from coal

1936

Adolf Hitler in Germany starts Major synthetic fuels and oil program

1937

First Polyalphaolefins were synthesized

1939

Fischer-Tropsh process that used carbon monoxide and hydrogen to make synthetic oils and fuels was commercialized in Germany

1942-45

PAG synthetic oils used in fleets and commercial vehicles

1944-45

10% of German supply of lubricating oil is "synthetic", made by using three different processes
Five plants in Germany, during their peak production period, produced about 5,400 metric tons per month of hydrocarbon and non-hydrocarbon synthetic base oils for use in lubricants

1944

US Army aircraft operating in Alaska and Canada use PAG engine oils

1944-45

The idea of using colloidal solids in synthetic fluids for lubrication of the first jet engines is tested and researched in Germany

1946

National Carbide Company, Inc. markets the "First" commercial PAG engine oils as:
Prestone Motor Oil

1946

New York Power & Light Corp uses PAG engine oils in variety of their commercial vehicles.

1942-55

Diester oils are used in turbine engines because Petroleum oil simply was inadequate to meet the demands of these engines.

1962

Texaco produces Synthetic Aircraft Turbine Oil

1962-66

U.S. Army experiences significant problems in operating vehicles and equipment in Alaska with
MIL-L-10295 Lubricating Oil.

1965

Mobil introduces fully synthetic grease

1966

First Syn! Synthetic Super Lubricants are produced in Canada

1966

Motul introduces first semi-synthetic motor oil in France

1968

U.S. Army develops MIL-L-46167 specification, which can be satisfied only with PAO synthetic oil

1969

SynLube Company is formed in Vancouver, B.C. Canada - it's specialty the first " syn-sol" lubricants.

1971

Motul in France introduces first all-synthetic oil in Europe

1972

AMZOIL is formed and markets re-labeled MIL specification oils to motoring public through multi-level "pyramid" type organization.
The AMZOIL Motor Oil was 100% diester-based and was labeled with non-existing J300 SAE designation as SAE 10W 20W 30 40

1973-74

Arab Oil embargo prompts interest in "synthetic" oils

1973

Mobil test markets Mobil 1 synthetic SAE 5W-20 "Synthesized Engine Lubricant "

1974

Mobil Oil goes national in USA with Mobil 1 synthetic SAE 5W-20 "Synthesized Engine Lubricant"

1976

Popular Science Magazine publishes "The big debate over Synthetic OIL"

1977

Mobil 1 changes the product description to "Synthetic Motor Oil"

1977

AMSOIL (no longer AMZOIL) now produces full synthetic SAE 10W-40 Motor Oil based on a polyalphaolefin (PAO) and ester blend

1980

Mobil introduces second generation synthetic motor oil Mobil 1 available as SAE 5W-30 and SAE 15W-50

1982

SynLube in Canada produces first SAE 5W-50 all synthetic non-petroleum motor oil

1984

Agip in Italy introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 10W-50

1985

U.S. Army uses the MIL-L-46167 lubes in other than arctic conditions.

1986

Mobil only in Europe introduces Rally Formula Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil: SAE 5W-50

1990

Quaker State introduces line of Synquest synthetic lubricants: grease NLGI No.2 GC-LB, motor oil SAE 5W-50 and gear oil SAE 75W-90


1990

Chevron introduces synthetic motor oil: SAE 5W-30 and SAE 5W-50

1992

Mobil introduces Advanced Formula Mobil 1 motor oil: SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 15W-50

1992

Formulation of first SAE 0W-60 motor oil in Germany

1992

Valvoline introduces synthetic motor oil: SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50

1992

CASTROL introduces Syntec SAE 5W-50 motor oil based on PAO

1993

Texaco introduces Havoline Synthetic motor oil: SAE 5W-40

1993

Pennzoil introduces Performax synthetic motor oil: SAE 5W-50

1993

Sunoco introduces DynaTech synthetic engine oils: SAE 20W-50 and 5W-40

1993

Sta-Lube launches marketing of synthetic gear oils and synthetic industrial grease

1994

Pep Boys starts selling synthetic motor oil under their own brand name: SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50

1994

Petrolon introduces synthetic motor oil under Slick 50 brand name

1994

Synthoil starts marketing of SAE 10W-30 synthetic motor oil

1994

CASTROL reformulates Syntec motor oils with API Group III (petroleum) base stock from Shell and continues to market them as "synthetic".

1995

Mobil Oil announced that it had decided to permanently withdraw its AV-1 fully synthetic oil from the market, and was recalling existing stocks of AV-1 from its distributors.


1997

Pep Boys stops selling synthetic motor oil under their own brand name

1999

Mobil introduces Mobil 1 "Tri-synthetic" version of their motor oil
The third "secret" ingredient was Alkylated Naphthalene

1999

NAD rules that hydroisomerized base oils (API Group III) can be classified as "synthetic oils"

1999

Exxon and Mobil merges to ExxonMobil.

2000

Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic-Blend motor oil

2000

Mobil 1 introduces SAE 0W-30 RACING Synthetic motor oil

2001

Synthoil goes out of business

2002

Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic motor oil with SuperSyn.

2003

SynLube introduces SAE 0W-40 PZEV Motor Oil


2005

Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic motor oil with 15,000 mile advertised service life

2007

Mobil 1 adds "disclaimers" onto the back label of "Extended Performance" Motor Oil with 15,000 mile advertised service life; and now advises users to follow the OEM oil drain intervals (same as for petroleum oil) on all vehicles under warranty

2008

AMSOIL adds to their line "7,500 mile / 6 Month" Motor Oil (XL) based on API Group III Basestock

2009

AMSOIL changes the (XL) service interval to "10,000 mile / 6 Month"

2010

AMSOIL adds to their line "3,000 mile / 3 Month" Motor Oil (OE) based on API Group III Basestock

2011

AutoZone starts selling synthetic motor oil under their own brand name

2011

Canadian Tire starts selling synthetic motor oil under "MotoMaster Formula 1" brand name SAE 5W-20 and SAE 5W-30

MikeekiM

Wow...that's a lot of info...

OK... For now, I am just going to go with an OEM filter with M1 10W-30 (as recommended by Honda) for this oil change...

In the meantime, I will research more on what to do the next time (and ongoing)...

Thanks for everyone's assistance!

B serious

Draining the car while it is level will yield more oil being drained than if the front wheels were up by themselves.

The drain plug is positioned to the RF corner of the engine. I always drain the oil with the car leveled.

My procedure is:
-Go drive the car hard (no problem).

-Come back, raise the car up via the 600 steps required to properly lift a S2000 with only 1 jack. Or use 2 jacks (way easier). Add jackstands.

-twist off the fill cap.

-pull the drain plug and filter.

-go inside/go on a longass bike ride/eat a sandwich. Let it drain like I'm up in the club.

-Install new crush washer, torque drain plug to 30lb. Torque new OEM honda filter to spec (you can't do it by hand).

-Fill with oil (usually around 5.5 qts before I had an oil cooler...now it takes around 6 quarts).

B serious

Lol...thought you didn't want this to be an oil type discussion?

Most commonly available "synthetic" oils in the USA aren't defined as synthetic in the rest of the world. What does this mean? Not much for most people.

Castrol Edge 0W30 is one exception to the above. Its actually synthetic...and I believe manufactured in Germany. It seems to be a great oil for S2000's.

But you're fine with what you chose also. Pretty much any 10W30 or similar weight oil works fine. Synthetic, blend, conventional, whatever. Its just oil unless you need to use something special for a specific purpose.

MikeekiM

Ha, ha... Yes, the original intent of my thread was to avoid creating another motor oil debate... And more importantly, be accused of not using the infamous search facilities...

That said, I don't think this has turned into a flaming oil war either...

I realize this stuff has been played out on numerous threads in the past...but in some respect, that's the normal course of communities like this (both online and in real life)... How often is a very popular topic discussed repeatedly? I do enjoy hearing (and re-hearing) people's opinions, just as long as it doesn't become caustic...

So in that spirit, I am happy to hear people's opinion of different oils and different filters if they are willing to share (and re-share)

My take is that this is a community, not necessarily a knowledgebase with the intent of ensuring that we NEVER replicate any of the conversations or content on the board...

Thanks everyone... Great stuff...

cosmomiller

Ha, ha... Yes, the original intent of my thread was to avoid creating another motor oil debate... And more importantly, be accused of not using the infamous search facilities...

That said, I don't think this has turned into a flaming oil war either...

I realize this stuff has been played out on numerous threads in the past...but in some respect, that's the normal course of communities like this (both online and in real life)... How often is a very popular topic discussed repeatedly? I do enjoy hearing (and re-hearing) people's opinions, just as long as it doesn't become caustic...

So in that spirit, I am happy to hear people's opinion of different oils and different filters if they are willing to share (and re-share)

My take is that this is a community, not necessarily a knowledgebase with the intent of ensuring that we NEVER replicate any of the conversations or content on the board...

Thanks everyone... Great stuff...
[/quote]

I guess I am guilty as charged and I was trying to avoid a particular brand vs brand degeneration.

Once again, I recommend, first, going over Bob is the oil guy 101 thread to bone up a bit on the basics. Link was in my first post or google. Synthetics leave more of a protective film than dino oil and that is good for a start if the thing has not run in some time. That is usually my case. 0w or 5w is simply less viscous at start up so it helps a bit more on start. If you decide to go with a drain valve (Fumoto) you won't have to worry about raising the front end; its always level. If you accidentally put too much in, its a snap to remove the desired amount.