ZDan

You have to take the UK "recommended" setting in the context of the UK spec RANGE. Instead of realizing (or admitting) that they screwed up the range they published and CORRECTING it, they just went with recommending the minimum end of their 2X too high range, because anything more than that gives even worse wear and handling. And .67 degrees is already bad enough.

Main point: the UK rear toe recommendation is only there because they erred what they published for the range. They would do better service to give the full Honda-intended range! Which I still think is a bit on the high side...

Gernby

I just wanted to report back after my autocross on Saturday about how friggin' awesome my car did with the front and rear toe'ed in to the max OEM spec. I don't know how much of the improvement was due to the alignment, but it handled so well that I don't believe the alignment could have been "bad". I wound up getting FTD for the first time since 2003, and only had 3 runs out of 9 that wouldn't have been FTD.

ZDan

Now instead of jumping to conclusions, the next step *should* be to try the minimum end of the spec range and see how that works for you, doing your best to eliminate or minimize any other changes.

Ideally you would do blind A-B-A testing, but that's not really practical...

Anyway, personal preferences are different, and setups that work for some won't necessarily work for others. Plenty of autoXers prefer toe-OUT up front.
Personally, I think that any setup that does better with any significant amount of toe in or out, front or rear, is compromised. It's just a piss-poor use of the tires to have them work against each other.

FWIW, when I did run max rear toe (0.64-0.67 degrees total), it wasn't undriveable until it prematurely wore out the rears due to excessive wear and heat. THEN it became a nightmare. On fresh tires it was merely a little weird and nonlinear. On a good lap on fresh tires, my best laps were about as quick as with my now preferred sub-minimum-spec rear toe. But I now get many times the usable tire life at the track and on the street, and find the handling behavior to be more linear and less spooky/weird, particularly in traction-challenged conditions or over asymmetric bumps/undulations. I definitely feel I'm more consistent with less toe.

The one time I accidentally ran 1 degree total rear toe, now THAT *was* undriveable in the wet, on the track and on the street, and VERY spooky in the dry over road imperfections. And street tire life went from ~20k+ to 3k (the big hint that something was WAY off)!

ZDan

It is also possible (likely, even) that for autoX more toe puts more heat into the tires and gets them closer to optimal temperature quicker, giving more grip over more of the course, giving quicker times. Obviously this would work against you on road courses, particularly for stints longer than a few laps or if you want to run autoX compounds.

My experience is limited to road courses and street usage.

Gernby

Actually, heat seemed to be a problem for me at this event. My fastest time in the morning was the 3rd out of 5, and my fastest of the afternoon was the 1st out of 4.

If I wanted to reduce understeer, then I would consider toe-out, but I've never had a problem with understeer in either of my S2000's. I've actually battled oversteer in both.

ZDan

Oh yeah, congrats on FTD! I've only done that once at the track, with the 240Z. The fast guys either stayed home or weren't running optimally in the cold (snowing!) conditions at Lime Rock Meanwhile I warmed up my tires on the skidpad for a few minutes before going down to grid

Do you have a front sway bar? Do you know what your tire temps were pre- and post-run?

I'd still avoid jumping to the conclusion that you were relatively faster because of running max spec toe (after this =/= because of this). More testing is needed!

Based on my (limited!) street and road course usage, I'd say I'm just dead-set against anything but the most modest toe settings, and would sooner change other parameters than resort to using a lot of toe (in or out).

Gernby

Thanks, but it's not as big of a deal to get FTD as it might seem. The clubs I autocross with are pretty small, and there were only about 40 drivers at this event.

I do have a saner sway bar on the front set to the middle setting. I don't check tire temps at all, and rarely check tire pressures. I just set the pressures the night before, and forget about them. I suspect that the pressures might have been too high by the end of my runs, but I've never really figured out what the "right" air pressure is for the RS-3's. When I ran R comps, I used really low pressures, but the RS-3's seem to need more...

In case I didn't give them before, here are my alignment specs:
Front:
0.19 deg total toe
-1.4 deg camber
6.5 deg caster

Rear:
0.36 deg total toe
-2.2 deg camber

ZDan

Ah, so getting FTD doesn't *necessarily* mean you were faster than usual vs. other consistent drivers.

Would've expected that to help with oversteer. Don't you AutoX guys want/need oversteer?!

For road course work, I generally aim to be at or slightly above the manufacturer's recommended hot pressures (measured hot, of course!). I don't kid myself that I have the time, money, or consistency to optimize. Running a little on the high side with regard to pressure will be conservative and increase tire life. Generally, with no other info, I aim for 38psi hot.

The old bias-ply Hoosiers liked really low pressures (~20 cold), but Hoosier recommends 37-41psi hot for 3000 lb. cars (S2000 with driver/fuel). For autoX, they say to start within 1-2psi of the recommended hot pressure, and to check after each run and dial it back if necessary. I think that's what I'd do if I were to try autoXing, short of any other info.

That's not what I'd call "excessive" rear toe, anyway. Towards the minimum end of the AP1 spec range (ignoring the absurd UK spec for the moment). I honestly doubt I'd have an easy time detecting the difference between the 0.2 degrees total rear toe I run and your 0.36 degrees. For sure your handling and rear tire life will be WAY more similar to my car than to one set to 0.67 degrees total.

Front toe I still say is unnecessary, and probably hurting turn-in response a wee bit. But if you're dealing with oversteer, maybe not a bad deal for you and your usage. I think most autoXers would prefer zero toe or a tiny bit of toe-out (though I'm not a fan of that either).

I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of time difference in autoX or at the track between your 0.19/0.36 total rear toe and my 0/0.2 total rear toe, but I bet my tires last a tiny bit longer!

s2000zr

can some one please give me advise on my alinement. I dont know what none of these mean. thanks

ZDan

Without going into each setting, I'll just say that you weren't too bad going in, better after (front toe-out and steering angle corrected). Rear toe looks good at ~0.3degrees. More than ~0.4 will start to negatively impact tire life.
If you wanted max handling performance, you'd want more camber all around, but what you've got looks totally fine and should wear evenly.

No worries.