Is my alignment ok for daily driving?
#31
Compliant tread and sidewall are generally better for rolling resistance, this is hinted at in part of the text you snipped above^^^
A tire tread and sidewall with very low bending stiffness doesn't resist deforming as much and generates less heat (lost energy). Think of how a radial tire bulges out at the bottom vs a much stiffer bias ply tire. The radial is more compliant and has much lower rolling resistance.
Back to the idea of dialing in more front toe so that it goes to zero while driving:
Each front tire on a 3000 lb S2k (w/ driver + fuel) will see a drag force of ~1000 lb under 1g braking. How much toe out do you reckon that 1000 lb induces? I don't know, but surely it's not more than 1degree. Even if the front tires are generating 50 lb of drag just freewheeling (at zero toe, I bet it's less than 15 lb, there's just no way RS3 RR coeff is .07), that would net you on the order of .05degrees if 1g braking gives1 degree.
Food for thought... Still betting that zero front toe will give you greater tire life than .16 degrees toe-in!
A tire tread and sidewall with very low bending stiffness doesn't resist deforming as much and generates less heat (lost energy). Think of how a radial tire bulges out at the bottom vs a much stiffer bias ply tire. The radial is more compliant and has much lower rolling resistance.
Back to the idea of dialing in more front toe so that it goes to zero while driving:
Each front tire on a 3000 lb S2k (w/ driver + fuel) will see a drag force of ~1000 lb under 1g braking. How much toe out do you reckon that 1000 lb induces? I don't know, but surely it's not more than 1degree. Even if the front tires are generating 50 lb of drag just freewheeling (at zero toe, I bet it's less than 15 lb, there's just no way RS3 RR coeff is .07), that would net you on the order of .05degrees if 1g braking gives1 degree.
Food for thought... Still betting that zero front toe will give you greater tire life than .16 degrees toe-in!
#32
I really do appreciate your input on this thread, and I'm seriously rethinking my position. Since I've had several arguments with people about the torque loss from the RS-3's, I've been struggling to separate that argument from the one that pertains to this thread (change in toe from rolling resistance).
Since I do CAN Dyno pulls in 3rd gear, but do DynoJet pulls in 5th, it seems the difference in tractive effort could explain why the CAN Dyno shows greater loss than the DynoJet. I will definitely try to squeeze in some testing with different combinations of tires with various levels of toe-in. The rear toe isn't as easy to set without an alignment rack, but I think I can work out some sort of system. I did really well calculating everything while installing and setting up my suspension last week, but spent $350 on my current alignment and corner weight check.
Since I do CAN Dyno pulls in 3rd gear, but do DynoJet pulls in 5th, it seems the difference in tractive effort could explain why the CAN Dyno shows greater loss than the DynoJet. I will definitely try to squeeze in some testing with different combinations of tires with various levels of toe-in. The rear toe isn't as easy to set without an alignment rack, but I think I can work out some sort of system. I did really well calculating everything while installing and setting up my suspension last week, but spent $350 on my current alignment and corner weight check.
#33
#34
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Maybe I need a new monitor - or better glasses, or both
And, the rear toe in UK-spec is at the minimum OEM setting, as if they agree with your less-toe-is-always-better statement but didn't want to recommend a setting out of OEM specs.
Grinding tires away in the name of "stability" is in my experience (I did try it) a promise not delivered on by big toe-in. It is a waste of tire grip and life to have the rears continuously work against each other, grinding themselves away. In my experience, way less rear toe feels a LOT better, more stable, more responsive and gives radically reduced tire wear.
I *have* tried 0.64degrees total rear toe (and inadvertently more than that once!) and it SUCKED, BAD, for EVERYthing!
I *have* tried 0.64degrees total rear toe (and inadvertently more than that once!) and it SUCKED, BAD, for EVERYthing!
With the build-in rear toe change at suspension compression to "help" cornering?
And the build-in snap-oversteer when you lift mid corner?
(I know one should not lift mid corner but if the rear steps out and you're not kinda waiting for it or expecting it one may get confused and lift, making it worse...)
#35
Originally Posted by ZDan' timestamp='1340164897' post='21796086
but then again the infamous UK spec gives a range from 0.67degrees to 1.33 degrees! The UK spec is almost certainly erroneous, as it gives exactly TWICE recommended rear to vs. the US spec of 0.32 degrees to 0.64degrees total.
I inadvertently ran in the MIDDLE of the UK spec range at 1.05° (.5 + .55) and the result was well nigh undriveable and wore out rear tires ALL the way down in 3000 miles. So even that amount is RIDICULOUS. 1.33° is just INSANE. Or maybe just stupid...
And, the rear toe in UK-spec is at the minimum OEM setting, as if they agree with your less-toe-is-always-better statement but didn't want to recommend a setting out of OEM specs.
As far as I'm concerned, the MINIMUM US spec of 0.32° total should be the MAXIMUM. So to me, the minimum end of the UK spec is about TWICE the max I would recommend.
Is there any change the MY'00-02 AP1 chassis will react differently to less than UK-spec rear toe in? With the build-in rear toe change at suspension compression to "help" cornering?
And the build-in snap-oversteer when you lift mid corner?
(I know one should not lift mid corner but if the rear steps out and you're not kinda waiting for it or expecting it one may get confused and lift, making it worse...)
(I know one should not lift mid corner but if the rear steps out and you're not kinda waiting for it or expecting it one may get confused and lift, making it worse...)
Only once have I gone back to BIG rear toe, and that was inadvertently and unbeknownst to me. But the handling steadily got worse and worse (more EVIL), and tire wear went CRAZY (see above).
Anyway, fear not running MINIMAL toe. EVERYTHING gets better! Handling, tire life, mileage.
IMO it's HUGELY unfortunate that so many have tried to "cure" the AP1's weird handling with more toe, which to me makes it WORSE! And also kills tires. And mileage...
Hence my crusade against running a lot of toe. Maybe I should write a treatise on it and get it stickied...
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You've got me - again - on the ' or ".
Degrees / arcminutes / arcseconds = ° / ' / ", I hope I've got it right now.
Nevertheless, in the UK-spec that I posted I see 0°20' per side, 0°40' in total, for rear toe.
Or maybe I'm having a Stan March - I don't get it moment.....
My car is an '01, so I'm dealing with the same toe-change-with-bump issue.
So I'm sure I would notice a difference with another toe setting, would it be a positive one, even in an AP1?
Going by your enthousiastic crusade against toe-anywhere I guess the answer is: Yes, 100%.
Btw.. how would you explain the huge difference in opinion between your toe recommendations and others posted in this thread?
I have no reason to doubt - and I don't - about what you are saying, but the same goes for the others.
You can not both be right... right?
One explanation could be this:
I've posted more than once the Torsen diff play's a huge role in handling of the car.
And diff oil changes the behavior of the diff.
1+1=2, diff oil changes behavior.
Not that many people have actually agreed with me or even noticed the same.
Making me - sometimes - think I'm just imagining it all.
But I know I'm not, I know what I feel in my seat when taking a (tight) corner under throttle.
Do your "Toe sucks" statements sometimes make you feel like Don Quichot?
"Why, for the love of Pete, doesn't anyone else notice what I did?"
#37
I should rephrase my question, knowing one can feel the difference in 0,1/0,2 bar of tyre pressure.
So I'm sure I would notice a difference with another toe setting, would it be a positive one, even in an AP1?
Going by your enthousiastic crusade against toe-anywhere I guess the answer is: Yes, 100%.
So I'm sure I would notice a difference with another toe setting, would it be a positive one, even in an AP1?
Going by your enthousiastic crusade against toe-anywhere I guess the answer is: Yes, 100%.
Btw.. how would you explain the huge difference in opinion between your toe recommendations and others posted in this thread?
I have no reason to doubt - and I don't - about what you are saying, but the same goes for the others.
I have no reason to doubt - and I don't - about what you are saying, but the same goes for the others.
#38
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UK spec range you posted (first sheet) is 20' per side to 40' per side, 40' to 1°20' total. Which is 0.67° to 1.33° total. No doubt after a slew of customers got undriveable cars and 1/10th normal tire life, they decided to recommend the lowest setting in that range (second sheet). Which is still absurdly high.
In the pdf copy of a (US) service manual, and my copy of a Honda ESM they do not state the rear toe in degrees, just in millimeters/inch.
I don't know what 6mm of rear toe will be in degrees, I'm guessing it is half a degree, the middle setting.
Using OEM you're right, you could get it to 1-1/3 total rear toe.
Using UK-spec the max rear total toe is 2/3.
You call this absurdly high, so far I would not call my car undrivable with this setting, on winter tyres and AD08's.
Actually, I did - last year - drive on winters well into the spring, just to wear them out, get all the life out of them and get new ones next season.
And the rears just would not wear, I was expecting high temps and some spirited driving would wear them out quickly.. but it didn't.
But if less=better, that's better
We'll see, I have to look for a good shop to have this done.
I hope to get a printout to scan& post.
But I've only seen you and one other advocate for a lot of rear toe-in in this thread.
I did post the picture of my fronts after running them with 0 toe and -1,xx camber showing not a whole lot of inside-camber-wear.
On rear toe I have no opinion, yet.
Other than: UK-spec is not undrivable.
#39
In the pdf copy of a (US) service manual, and my copy of a Honda ESM they do not state the rear toe in degrees, just in millimeters/inch.
I don't know what 6mm of rear toe will be in degrees, I'm guessing it is half a degree, the middle setting.
I don't know what 6mm of rear toe will be in degrees, I'm guessing it is half a degree, the middle setting.
Using OEM you're right, you could get it to 1-1/3 total rear toe.
Using UK-spec the max rear total toe is 2/3.
What happened: Alignments got set based on the ERRONEOUS 2/3 to 1-1/3 degrees total spec, and cars drove like absolute crap and tire wear was anywhere from 1/2 to 1/10th normal. So somebody figured out that the ONLY way to get reasonable handling and tire life AND stay within their (again erroneous) spec range was to specify the MINIMUM end of that range: 2/3 or 0.67 degrees total. Which is REALLY supposed to be the MAXIMUM rear toe.
You call this absurdly high, so far I would not call my car undrivable with this setting, on winter tyres and AD08's.
Actually, I did - last year - drive on winters well into the spring, just to wear them out, get all the life out of them and get new ones next season.
And the rears just would not wear, I was expecting high temps and some spirited driving would wear them out quickly.. but it didn't.
And the rears just would not wear, I was expecting high temps and some spirited driving would wear them out quickly.. but it didn't.
But if less=better, that's better
But I've only seen you and one other advocate for a lot of rear toe-in in this thread.
I did post the picture of my fronts after running them with 0 toe and -1,xx camber showing not a whole lot of inside-camber-wear.
On rear toe I have no opinion, yet.
Other than: UK-spec is not undrivable.
On rear toe I have no opinion, yet.
Other than: UK-spec is not undrivable.
UK "recommended" setting is based on their getting the REAL Honda spec range wrong by a factor of 2x. If they'd gotten it right, their range would have been 20' (0.33degrees) TOTAL to 40' (0.67 degrees) TOTAL, and not per side.
And IMO even the Honda-intended range is well on the high side, I recommend 0.2 - 0.3 degrees total.
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IMO, the UK-spec alignment is ONLY the bottom part, where it says: Honda (UK) recommended optimum specification.
Where the max total toe is 2/3 of a degree, without a range.
Based on the mm>degree conversion you showed: yes.
Measuring a toe-in at the tire is kinda strange though, where do you measure?
What if I'm running a different tyre, the OEM S-02's rears have pretty square sidewalls.
And where do you take the 0-line?
It would make more sense to get a solid fixed point to measure, to avoid faults.
This is the alignment tool they show in my ESM and the measuring point is at the rim, not at the tire.
It does change the mm>degree conversion a fair bit.
6mm at 16" will give you 0,85 degree total.
Agreed, this is still no where close to the workshop manual specification in the posted bulletin.
Data:
Bought a set of 4 (205/225) Continental TS810 on 11-2007.
The fronts have about 45000km on them now and I will use them next winter - profile depth is 4mm or so.
The rears lasted for 32000km, with 3,5mm profile left (but no point running bald winters and they would not really wear quickly at high temps, as I mentioned before, to feel better replacing them)
On 12-2010 I bought a second hand set of TS810 rears with 6.5mm left, I put around 13000 on them, I don't know the profile depth right now.
32k km on a set of rears is not that bad, IMO.
With less rear toe I would have gotten twice that?
That would be nice.
Point taken.
If saying "I like how the car drives with UK-spec" is the same as advocating... then yes: guilty.
You show me (us) a fool-prove, beyond reasonable doubt way to convert the OEM 6mm to degree.
Honda sure doesn't give any hint on how to do this.
What do the modern alignment computers / equipment in the US say about S2000 rear toe-in?
Is the setting in the database in mm or degrees?
Is what most will see as the UK-spec.
Still, I think my car is not unstable and the handling is not bad, certainly not unpredictable and rear tire life is not extremely low.
I'm going to give this a try and I'll let you/everyone know.
Where the max total toe is 2/3 of a degree, without a range.
Which is REALLY supposed to be the MAXIMUM rear toe.
Measuring a toe-in at the tire is kinda strange though, where do you measure?
What if I'm running a different tyre, the OEM S-02's rears have pretty square sidewalls.
And where do you take the 0-line?
It would make more sense to get a solid fixed point to measure, to avoid faults.
This is the alignment tool they show in my ESM and the measuring point is at the rim, not at the tire.
It does change the mm>degree conversion a fair bit.
6mm at 16" will give you 0,85 degree total.
Agreed, this is still no where close to the workshop manual specification in the posted bulletin.
That's you're impression, but I'm not seeing any data.
Bought a set of 4 (205/225) Continental TS810 on 11-2007.
The fronts have about 45000km on them now and I will use them next winter - profile depth is 4mm or so.
The rears lasted for 32000km, with 3,5mm profile left (but no point running bald winters and they would not really wear quickly at high temps, as I mentioned before, to feel better replacing them)
On 12-2010 I bought a second hand set of TS810 rears with 6.5mm left, I put around 13000 on them, I don't know the profile depth right now.
32k km on a set of rears is not that bad, IMO.
With less rear toe I would have gotten twice that?
That would be nice.
Show me the other posts in this thread advocating for 0.67+ degrees total rear toe.
If saying "I like how the car drives with UK-spec" is the same as advocating... then yes: guilty.
You show me (us) a fool-prove, beyond reasonable doubt way to convert the OEM 6mm to degree.
Honda sure doesn't give any hint on how to do this.
What do the modern alignment computers / equipment in the US say about S2000 rear toe-in?
Is the setting in the database in mm or degrees?
The very minimum end of the UK-spec range
is "driveable", but is still costing people in terms of stable predictable handling and tire life as well.
And IMO even the Honda-intended range is well on the high side, I recommend 0.2 - 0.3 degrees total.