Mobil 1 vs. OEM filters
01-17-2009, 01:54 AM
#61
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Make up oil? As in added oil? I will add as necessary, since my car uses about a quart every 3K. I believe the added oil should be almost exactly the same, since the filter does not consume oil.
01-17-2009, 01:19 PM
#63
Originally Posted by ikeyballz' date='Jan 17 2009, 12:54 AM
Make up oil? As in added oil? I will add as necessary, since my car uses about a quart every 3K. I believe the added oil should be almost exactly the same, since the filter does not consume oil.
01-17-2009, 02:43 PM
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There is no nice way of saying this: what have you - 2007 Zx-10 - brought into this discussion to back up your claims?
Claims as in: blowing it off the table, PCX is mediocre, M1-104 performance "well" documented on BITOG, etc, etc....
Absolutey nothing.
Just like you did in the other threads - yes more than one - about oil filters.
Give us, or me, one, just ONE (1) reason that is stopping you from cutting an M1-104 open to prove ikeyballz wrong on the filter medium area?
You do nothing more than post the same link over and over again.
And the funny thing is: when the pics on that website shows the M1-104 has a lot less filter material you just say "that info is outdated" but now you use that same data, on a website that doesn't even lists the 15400-PCX-004 to prove you are right?
C'mon..
I'll give you this: saying the M1-104 has "half" the PCX filter area is stretching it a bit, but all the evidence is pointing towards the fact the M1-104 has LESS.
And not just 5% less.
You do the math.
edit:ikeyballz showed the Filtech PCX has 54 pleats, the same as the Japan build 15400-PR3-014, so its strange you used the USA build 15400-P0H-305 with only 47 pleats as your standard.
Well.. I understand why because the Japan build filter had 168.6 "^2
Another piece of data not in your favor.
The 15400-PCX-004 looks identical to the Japan build 15400-P0H-305 as mentioned in the FAQ on top of UTH.
Taking the M1-104 as 100% the PCX has +56% more filter area.
(that would qualify as "half.. wouldn't it?)
Taking the PCX as 100% the M1-104 hass 36% less.
So someone once again did the math for you.......
end of edit
Same thing about the construction of the M1-104.
You say "quality is going to vary" and the one that was cut open must have been a lemon....
And you want to put that kind of filter on your engine?
All the pics I have seen of the insides of a PCX look identical and of a higher standard than the M1-104.
Again: prove us wrong.
Another thing: oil pressure.
The PCX is a specific filter for the F20/F22.
The M1-104 is used for more than one engine.
Confronted with that you doubt the F20/F22 has higher oil pressure than other high performace engines.
But when you're given a number - up to 125 psi @ 5000 rpm and up - you stay silent.
Is that because you don't know the max oil pressure in other high performace engines or is that because the F20/F22 has a higher max oil pressure?
What's it going to be?
When some one is doing what you should be doing to back-up YOUR claims and the numbers are not in your favor you just put it aside as a backyard mechanic measurement.
Pretty childish IMO.
I can't find another word for it.
for ikeyballz , I know you're doing this because you are interested and not to prove anything.
No I'm not finished yet
It looks like you are allready creating an exit strategy on the UOA/particle count results:
2007 Zx-10 Posted on Jan 17 2009, 11:43 PM
And why is that?
The wear particles will still be in the sump or in the filter, big or small.
No matter now much fresh oil you add.
The concentration will be a bit different so the ppm for wear metals could be off, but if you keep the oil level at the same level during the OCI and take a sample when it has the same level the UOA results will be pretty valid.
A particle count is not affected by concertration.
That's obvious.
edit The particle count remark is not right.
As with UOA's and wear metals at microscopic levels the particle count is also measured per sample.
So a sample, diluted with fresh oil that has just been put in the engine will show less.
That said, if the oil level is kept at the same level during the OCI and the sample is taken at that oil level too, there is little room for dilution error IMO.
end of edit
The TBN and TAN will be off with lots of make-up oil, that is true.
But both have nothing to do with the oil filter performance.
To ikeyballz: just run the oil and run it as long as you intended and add oil when needed.
Don't let others decide how to run your test.
If they want to run their own tests to prove the types of impressive sounding, yet completely unsubstantiated pronouncements and claims they have been making nothing is stopping them.
Period.
Claims as in: blowing it off the table, PCX is mediocre, M1-104 performance "well" documented on BITOG, etc, etc....
Absolutey nothing.
Just like you did in the other threads - yes more than one - about oil filters.
Give us, or me, one, just ONE (1) reason that is stopping you from cutting an M1-104 open to prove ikeyballz wrong on the filter medium area?
You do nothing more than post the same link over and over again.
And the funny thing is: when the pics on that website shows the M1-104 has a lot less filter material you just say "that info is outdated" but now you use that same data, on a website that doesn't even lists the 15400-PCX-004 to prove you are right?
C'mon..
I'll give you this: saying the M1-104 has "half" the PCX filter area is stretching it a bit, but all the evidence is pointing towards the fact the M1-104 has LESS.
And not just 5% less.
You do the math.
edit:ikeyballz showed the Filtech PCX has 54 pleats, the same as the Japan build 15400-PR3-014, so its strange you used the USA build 15400-P0H-305 with only 47 pleats as your standard.
Well.. I understand why because the Japan build filter had 168.6 "^2
Another piece of data not in your favor.
The 15400-PCX-004 looks identical to the Japan build 15400-P0H-305 as mentioned in the FAQ on top of UTH.
Taking the M1-104 as 100% the PCX has +56% more filter area.
(that would qualify as "half.. wouldn't it?)
Taking the PCX as 100% the M1-104 hass 36% less.
So someone once again did the math for you.......
end of edit
Same thing about the construction of the M1-104.
You say "quality is going to vary" and the one that was cut open must have been a lemon....
And you want to put that kind of filter on your engine?
All the pics I have seen of the insides of a PCX look identical and of a higher standard than the M1-104.
Again: prove us wrong.
Another thing: oil pressure.
The PCX is a specific filter for the F20/F22.
The M1-104 is used for more than one engine.
Confronted with that you doubt the F20/F22 has higher oil pressure than other high performace engines.
But when you're given a number - up to 125 psi @ 5000 rpm and up - you stay silent.
Is that because you don't know the max oil pressure in other high performace engines or is that because the F20/F22 has a higher max oil pressure?
What's it going to be?
When some one is doing what you should be doing to back-up YOUR claims and the numbers are not in your favor you just put it aside as a backyard mechanic measurement.
Pretty childish IMO.
I can't find another word for it.
for ikeyballz , I know you're doing this because you are interested and not to prove anything.No I'm not finished yet
It looks like you are allready creating an exit strategy on the UOA/particle count results:
2007 Zx-10 Posted on Jan 17 2009, 11:43 PM
if you add oil, the results are not valid imo
The wear particles will still be in the sump or in the filter, big or small.
No matter now much fresh oil you add.
The concentration will be a bit different so the ppm for wear metals could be off, but if you keep the oil level at the same level during the OCI and take a sample when it has the same level the UOA results will be pretty valid.
A particle count is not affected by concertration.
That's obvious.
edit The particle count remark is not right.
As with UOA's and wear metals at microscopic levels the particle count is also measured per sample.
So a sample, diluted with fresh oil that has just been put in the engine will show less.
That said, if the oil level is kept at the same level during the OCI and the sample is taken at that oil level too, there is little room for dilution error IMO.
end of edit
The TBN and TAN will be off with lots of make-up oil, that is true.
But both have nothing to do with the oil filter performance.
To ikeyballz: just run the oil and run it as long as you intended and add oil when needed.
Don't let others decide how to run your test.
If they want to run their own tests to prove the types of impressive sounding, yet completely unsubstantiated pronouncements and claims they have been making nothing is stopping them.
Period.
01-17-2009, 06:38 PM
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Spitfire took the time to type out exactly what a great many of us have been thinking after reading this thread (and countless others regarding the PCX filter vs. 2007ZX-10 and his RX7).
01-18-2009, 03:50 PM
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Spitfire, 90CRVtec, thanks for answering for me. I've been busy..just put on a glass top on my 01! :-D it looks so much better with a clear back window!
Zx, I have nothing to prove and nothing to hide. I would if I could, add no oil for you, but I am not willing to risk damage to my engine. I always keep the oil level above half, so I'm also not going to just let it run from full to low (although taka brings up a good point..). I think the main point was the filters performance, not what the UOA reads. I dont see why the makeup oil will make a difference (as spitfireS mentioned). Its not so much what my UOA reads - its the offset between the two filter performances, right? If I add the same amount of oil, even if my UOA read better than it shouldve, it would do this across the board. I'm really not doing this to prove you or call you out, zx, Im doing it because I'm interested in this, and I assumed others would be as well.
On the plus side, blackstone just emailed saying they sent me a kit! Couple thousand miles early, but hell... just in case. for their promptness.
Zx, I have nothing to prove and nothing to hide. I would if I could, add no oil for you, but I am not willing to risk damage to my engine. I always keep the oil level above half, so I'm also not going to just let it run from full to low (although taka brings up a good point..). I think the main point was the filters performance, not what the UOA reads. I dont see why the makeup oil will make a difference (as spitfireS mentioned). Its not so much what my UOA reads - its the offset between the two filter performances, right? If I add the same amount of oil, even if my UOA read better than it shouldve, it would do this across the board. I'm really not doing this to prove you or call you out, zx, Im doing it because I'm interested in this, and I assumed others would be as well.
On the plus side, blackstone just emailed saying they sent me a kit!
Couple thousand miles early, but hell... just in case. for their promptness.
01-18-2009, 04:26 PM
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I will use nothing but Honda OEM from now on.
Last time I had an oil change (always use mobil1 oil) I let them put on whatever filters they used (it was a very reputable shop). Anyway, last Saturday at the track my oil filter backed off and the o-ring blew out. I lost almost 5 quarts of oil in less than a minute. Luckily my engine is fine. I'm convinced that having the engine up around 6k-9k on the track kept the oil pressure high enough to move what little was left of the oil through the engine.
Honda OEM FTW.
Last time I had an oil change (always use mobil1 oil) I let them put on whatever filters they used (it was a very reputable shop). Anyway, last Saturday at the track my oil filter backed off and the o-ring blew out. I lost almost 5 quarts of oil in less than a minute. Luckily my engine is fine. I'm convinced that having the engine up around 6k-9k on the track kept the oil pressure high enough to move what little was left of the oil through the engine.
Honda OEM FTW.
01-18-2009, 05:02 PM
#68
It takes a LOT of B.S. to piss off SpitfireS.
ZX: I think you stroke your ego by pissing people off, and by creating tension where none is warranted. It's one thing to stir constructive debate - it's another to deliberately create hate and discontent. You have done the same thing to a number of folks online - including myself.
Here's my final point on this subject before I continue: my car has shown remarkably low wear, both demonstrated in the recent leakdown tests I posted, and in an inspection of the camshaft bearings (examined when I had the intake retainers replaced with the cams pulled). What both of these tests/inspections prove, in fact, is a quality synthetic oil paired with the OEM PCX filter will result in little to practically no wear over 55,000+ miles of high RPM/WOT/hard driving. Additionally, my S2000 has 4.57 gears which GREATLY increases the average number of RPMs per mile - which is the actual true measure of cycles an engine (and motor oil) experience over any given period - not simply miles...
Unless you can somehow show me that a Mobil 1 (or any other filter - other than the OEM PCX filter) would produce measurably lower wear - you are pissing in the wind. The OEM PCX filter is a high quality filter specifically designed for the F20/22 engine - not 20 random engines that it barely matches the factory specs for - it's specifically designed for the S2000. The filter media has proven to be efficient enough to catch anything that will cause wear in this engine - while balancing the high pressure needs of the F20/22.
Now back on my soap box:
I will say that contributions by folks like SpitfireS, who post here for the general good of others in the S2000 community (not to stroke their own ego), greatly outweighs any contribution you have made to date. Take an objective look at the information provided and rethink your contribution. I'm sure you're an intelligent person (I think there are a great deal of intelligent people on this site) - but you're not as clever as you may think. Feel free to use whatever filter you want - feel free to justify it any way you want. The rest of us will use logic and facts and keep using the OEM PCX filter until either the OEM filter no longer passes muster - or some other company out there actually makes a filter that works better than OEM - neither have happened to date.
I'm personally ordering 20 this week - to cover me for the next 30 months or so. Good luck to you.
ZX: I think you stroke your ego by pissing people off, and by creating tension where none is warranted. It's one thing to stir constructive debate - it's another to deliberately create hate and discontent. You have done the same thing to a number of folks online - including myself.
Here's my final point on this subject before I continue: my car has shown remarkably low wear, both demonstrated in the recent leakdown tests I posted, and in an inspection of the camshaft bearings (examined when I had the intake retainers replaced with the cams pulled). What both of these tests/inspections prove, in fact, is a quality synthetic oil paired with the OEM PCX filter will result in little to practically no wear over 55,000+ miles of high RPM/WOT/hard driving. Additionally, my S2000 has 4.57 gears which GREATLY increases the average number of RPMs per mile - which is the actual true measure of cycles an engine (and motor oil) experience over any given period - not simply miles...
Unless you can somehow show me that a Mobil 1 (or any other filter - other than the OEM PCX filter) would produce measurably lower wear - you are pissing in the wind. The OEM PCX filter is a high quality filter specifically designed for the F20/22 engine - not 20 random engines that it barely matches the factory specs for - it's specifically designed for the S2000. The filter media has proven to be efficient enough to catch anything that will cause wear in this engine - while balancing the high pressure needs of the F20/22.
Now back on my soap box:
I will say that contributions by folks like SpitfireS, who post here for the general good of others in the S2000 community (not to stroke their own ego), greatly outweighs any contribution you have made to date. Take an objective look at the information provided and rethink your contribution. I'm sure you're an intelligent person (I think there are a great deal of intelligent people on this site) - but you're not as clever as you may think. Feel free to use whatever filter you want - feel free to justify it any way you want. The rest of us will use logic and facts and keep using the OEM PCX filter until either the OEM filter no longer passes muster - or some other company out there actually makes a filter that works better than OEM - neither have happened to date.
I'm personally ordering 20 this week - to cover me for the next 30 months or so. Good luck to you.
01-18-2009, 06:50 PM
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[quote name='slipstream444' date='Jan 18 2009, 06:02 PM'] Unless you can somehow show me that a Mobil 1 (or any other filter - other than the OEM PCX filter) would produce measurably lower wear - you are pissing in the wind.
01-18-2009, 07:28 PM
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[quote name='2007 Zx-10' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:50 PM']Like I said, my engine is still in break-in mode, otherwise I would run a particle count comparison myself, I'm certainly not worried that the PCX will outperform the M1.