Mobil 1 5w-30 EP
08-18-2008, 01:58 PM
#183
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Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Aug 18 2008, 01:32 PM
Creating a database of engine oils and how they perform in the F20/F22 would be nice but kinda time consuming and expensive.
08-19-2008, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by slipstream444,Aug 18 2008, 03:46 PM
On your personal quip: once again... if you post something that's not relevant in a technical forum, be prepared to hear about it. Flowery statements, broad generalizations, and rediculous analogies belong in a philosophy forum. This isn't Oprah - this is a forum for people who get their hands dirty under the hood - hence the name.
If you didn't want someone to criticize your words - then keep it relevant. As one of my Commanders used to say:
"
I'm not here to be diplomatic. I live and work in an environment where being delicate just doesn't cut it - and I'm not here to stroke your ego either. If you can't hack a little criticism - then don't post.
As for your point on standardized tests: Standardization, IS exactly the point of developing standardized tests - and the training and certification of personnel and facilities that are allowed to legally perform these tests. These tests aren't conducted by hacks or super secret agents of the evil empire of Amsoil. These facilities employ tight standards that strictly adhere to the testing criteria and methods developed to create valid and applicable measures. These facilities and testing personnel pay thousands of dollars to earn their certifications, and certainly aren't willing to doctor tests to benefit a tiny oil company from Wisconsin. Mobil 1 and all the other major players in the motor oil business would sue them into oblivion if they even thought for a second the independent lab wasn't operating above board. It's no different than any other profession that requires certifications.
What do you think goes on at these facilities?
As for my points being on "shaky" ground - you haven't made a valid point yet. Show me how test results are being manipulated? What processes are being adulterated or modified outside standards set forth by the applicable standards organizations? Unless you can show valid data to prove your point - your position has no validity - and that's quick sand my friend.
On your point regarding Mileage standards: they continually change to more reasonably and accurately demonstrate "real" world consumption. However, there is no such thing as a real world measure of fuel consumption. Example: the AP1 was rated at 20 and 26mpg (city/hwy) when it was new (I believe). Yet I see 25 mpg all day long in the city - with several redline VTEC runs a day, and I'm running an '04 transmission and 4.57 gears to boot. I consistently see 28 mpg on long road trips - if I keep it around 70mph or less. Yet there are those on this site that see much less than that - and some with better mileage. What does that show??
Fuel consumption in motor vehicles is affected by simply too many variables to allow for standardized tests to predict accurate values. The biggest variable being the knucklehead behind the wheel.
On the other hand - oil will operate very predictably, even based on a wide variety of applications due to the fact engine oil operates in a very tight range of operating temperatures, shear conditions, and exposure to chemical contamination (etc.). I think it goes without saying that the AP1 (and similarly the AP2) are by far some of the most inhospitable environments for oil to operate in - yet almost every UOA I've seen is consistent in comparison with just about any other gas engine on the market. What does that tell me - that most modern oils operate in a very predictable manner based on their design - which includes extensive testing using the vast battery of standardized tests - you so openly criticize.
Comparing standardized tests involving such vastly differing operating measures goes even well outside an apples and oranges comparison. It's like saying for example: you can't trust a computer controlled pace maker because vista sucks. That comparison is idiotic at best and has NO relavance. Your comparison of mileage standards and standardized testing of motor oils was not too far behind it.
Back to oil comparisons - how does Mobil 1 prove their oil is actually better than conventional oil? The exact tests you again are criticizing. This is in fact true of all oil manufacturers, including Amsoil. Amsoil just so happens to be the only one willing to compare their oils to other manufacturers oils in direct comparison using these standardized tests, conducted by certified independent labs.
Therefore, if you think Mobil 1 is better than conventional oil based on their own claims, then how much more of a stretch is it to see that the same tests show Amsoil is better?
This is the logic I have used to decide on what oil I use.
You can decide to use whatever oil you wish, based on whatever bizzaro logic you choose to use. Do whatever makes you happy in the end.
I've also been open enough to say that if Amsoil and Redline stopped making motor oils - I'd likely go with Mobil 1 EP. Why? Because the tests that Amsoil published have shown Mobil 1 EP is actually a pretty darn good oil. Why not use it then you may ask?? Because Amsoil is better and only slightly more expensive than Mobil 1 EP (after shipping). I see the value added in the product. If you don't - don't use it.
As for it being hard to get... I order it on a Friday, and it's sitting on my porch by Wednesday. That's my idea of reasonable and easy.
If you didn't want someone to criticize your words - then keep it relevant. As one of my Commanders used to say:
"
I'm not here to be diplomatic. I live and work in an environment where being delicate just doesn't cut it - and I'm not here to stroke your ego either. If you can't hack a little criticism - then don't post.
As for your point on standardized tests: Standardization, IS exactly the point of developing standardized tests - and the training and certification of personnel and facilities that are allowed to legally perform these tests. These tests aren't conducted by hacks or super secret agents of the evil empire of Amsoil. These facilities employ tight standards that strictly adhere to the testing criteria and methods developed to create valid and applicable measures. These facilities and testing personnel pay thousands of dollars to earn their certifications, and certainly aren't willing to doctor tests to benefit a tiny oil company from Wisconsin. Mobil 1 and all the other major players in the motor oil business would sue them into oblivion if they even thought for a second the independent lab wasn't operating above board. It's no different than any other profession that requires certifications.
What do you think goes on at these facilities?
As for my points being on "shaky" ground - you haven't made a valid point yet. Show me how test results are being manipulated? What processes are being adulterated or modified outside standards set forth by the applicable standards organizations? Unless you can show valid data to prove your point - your position has no validity - and that's quick sand my friend.
On your point regarding Mileage standards: they continually change to more reasonably and accurately demonstrate "real" world consumption. However, there is no such thing as a real world measure of fuel consumption. Example: the AP1 was rated at 20 and 26mpg (city/hwy) when it was new (I believe). Yet I see 25 mpg all day long in the city - with several redline VTEC runs a day, and I'm running an '04 transmission and 4.57 gears to boot. I consistently see 28 mpg on long road trips - if I keep it around 70mph or less. Yet there are those on this site that see much less than that - and some with better mileage. What does that show??
Fuel consumption in motor vehicles is affected by simply too many variables to allow for standardized tests to predict accurate values. The biggest variable being the knucklehead behind the wheel.
On the other hand - oil will operate very predictably, even based on a wide variety of applications due to the fact engine oil operates in a very tight range of operating temperatures, shear conditions, and exposure to chemical contamination (etc.). I think it goes without saying that the AP1 (and similarly the AP2) are by far some of the most inhospitable environments for oil to operate in - yet almost every UOA I've seen is consistent in comparison with just about any other gas engine on the market. What does that tell me - that most modern oils operate in a very predictable manner based on their design - which includes extensive testing using the vast battery of standardized tests - you so openly criticize.
Comparing standardized tests involving such vastly differing operating measures goes even well outside an apples and oranges comparison. It's like saying for example: you can't trust a computer controlled pace maker because vista sucks. That comparison is idiotic at best and has NO relavance. Your comparison of mileage standards and standardized testing of motor oils was not too far behind it.
Back to oil comparisons - how does Mobil 1 prove their oil is actually better than conventional oil? The exact tests you again are criticizing. This is in fact true of all oil manufacturers, including Amsoil. Amsoil just so happens to be the only one willing to compare their oils to other manufacturers oils in direct comparison using these standardized tests, conducted by certified independent labs.
Therefore, if you think Mobil 1 is better than conventional oil based on their own claims, then how much more of a stretch is it to see that the same tests show Amsoil is better?
This is the logic I have used to decide on what oil I use.
You can decide to use whatever oil you wish, based on whatever bizzaro logic you choose to use. Do whatever makes you happy in the end.
I've also been open enough to say that if Amsoil and Redline stopped making motor oils - I'd likely go with Mobil 1 EP. Why? Because the tests that Amsoil published have shown Mobil 1 EP is actually a pretty darn good oil. Why not use it then you may ask?? Because Amsoil is better and only slightly more expensive than Mobil 1 EP (after shipping). I see the value added in the product. If you don't - don't use it.
As for it being hard to get... I order it on a Friday, and it's sitting on my porch by Wednesday. That's my idea of reasonable and easy.
I said that standardized test results should not be the sole judge of a better product as they can be manipulated. I can think of several major incidences of a company specifically designing it's product to perform well in the standardized tests to gain a marketing advantage. The problem was that once the product hit the market it didn't perform up to par with it's test results.
Hence my statement that your platform (it does better in the tests and is therefore better) was rather shaky.
Your consistent and unneccesary use of personal attacks (which is more laughable than offensive) not only degrades your argument, it gives you the look of a fanboy who is totally incapable of accepting criticism of himself or the product he so fervently supports.
As I stated already, I don't care I am not supporting either side of this argument, i was merely pointing out a flaw in your own logic. So to borrow your own words (or the words of your former commander):
"Grow a pair or put a plug in it - either way, thicken your hide and stop being such a pussy".
08-19-2008, 01:29 PM
#186
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Si2k Posted on Aug 19 2008, 01:21 AM
Yeah, all it needs is a 30 weight when warm.
And, like every internal combustion piston engine on this planet, it will benefit from thinner oil during a cold start.
IMO
The $1,000,000 question is: what xxW-30 oil do I need to realize that?
And how well does that oil resist shearing?
(most-if-not-all UOA's of dino oil DO show shear in the F20/F22)
How long can I use that oil?
How much does it cost?
How cool am I using it?
How cool is it to use purple oil.... or red oil?
How smart do YOU think I am using it?
Is it on sale this weekend?
Do I get a rebate?
Do I want the best? (period)
What is the "best"?
We need that UOA section!
Why don't all members send some extra $$ to cthree so he can buy some extra servers.......
(sorry.. couldn't resist)
To be honest the F20 or F22C doesn't need anything special as far as I can see..... snap.... It is a high revving engine, with high piston and bearing speeds. Everything else is pretty normal.
And, like every internal combustion piston engine on this planet, it will benefit from thinner oil during a cold start.
IMO
The $1,000,000 question is: what xxW-30 oil do I need to realize that?
And how well does that oil resist shearing?
(most-if-not-all UOA's of dino oil DO show shear in the F20/F22)
How long can I use that oil?
How much does it cost?
How cool am I using it?
How cool is it to use purple oil.... or red oil?
How smart do YOU think I am using it?
Is it on sale this weekend?
Do I get a rebate?
Do I want the best? (period)
What is the "best"?
We need that UOA section!
Why don't all members send some extra $$ to cthree so he can buy some extra servers.......
(sorry.. couldn't resist)
08-20-2008, 08:35 PM
#187
Registered User
This is from the ad that appears at the top of this page for me. I know that preferredlubricants. com is an independent Amsoil multi-level marketing distributor, not the company, but things like this have deterred me from trying the product for years. In spite of their hype, I'm actually using ATM, their 75W-90 GL5 in the diff, and their recommended transmission oil presently.
A quote from the preferrredlubricants.com ad that appears on this page for a mere member like me:
"AMSOIL gives a 5% increase in fuel economy on average, and in some cases 20% and even more! Why use ordinary oils when our superior AMSOIL synthetic oils outperform all others? AMSOIL Synthetic Oil achieves superior lubrication, extends engine life by reducing friction and wear and creates more horsepower. As a home-based AMSOIL dealer, you can build a great repeat-order business."
A quote from the preferrredlubricants.com ad that appears on this page for a mere member like me:
"AMSOIL gives a 5% increase in fuel economy on average, and in some cases 20% and even more! Why use ordinary oils when our superior AMSOIL synthetic oils outperform all others? AMSOIL Synthetic Oil achieves superior lubrication, extends engine life by reducing friction and wear and creates more horsepower. As a home-based AMSOIL dealer, you can build a great repeat-order business."
08-20-2008, 08:40 PM
#188
Registered User
There's a second reason why I've been hesitant to buy Amsoil products: the local Advance Auto Parts store where I've bought oil for years has a container I can pour my used oil every time I bought oil.
08-21-2008, 03:43 AM
#190
Registered User
Originally Posted by RedY2KS2k,Aug 21 2008, 04:35 AM
This is from the ad that appears at the top of this page for me. I know that preferredlubricants. com is an independent Amsoil multi-level marketing distributor, not the company, but things like this have deterred me from trying the product for years. In spite of their hype, I'm actually using ATM, their 75W-90 GL5 in the diff, and their recommended transmission oil presently.
A quote from the preferrredlubricants.com ad that appears on this page for a mere member like me:
"AMSOIL gives a 5% increase in fuel economy on average, and in some cases 20% and even more! Why use ordinary oils when our superior AMSOIL synthetic oils outperform all others? AMSOIL Synthetic Oil achieves superior lubrication, extends engine life by reducing friction and wear and creates more horsepower. As a home-based AMSOIL dealer, you can build a great repeat-order business."
A quote from the preferrredlubricants.com ad that appears on this page for a mere member like me:
"AMSOIL gives a 5% increase in fuel economy on average, and in some cases 20% and even more! Why use ordinary oils when our superior AMSOIL synthetic oils outperform all others? AMSOIL Synthetic Oil achieves superior lubrication, extends engine life by reducing friction and wear and creates more horsepower. As a home-based AMSOIL dealer, you can build a great repeat-order business."
Would absolutly love to see the data that supports that!
You will maybe get 5% - but that's comparing a 0W-20 with 20W-60.