Mild (as opposed to Wild) Turbo for the S
03-27-2002, 12:32 PM
#51
Moderator
Thread Starter
As for CARB approval: I doubt it.
From my understanding CARB involves a fairly expensive application, followed by a series of tests and requirements. It would take an awful lot of orders to make that worthwhile.
From my understanding CARB involves a fairly expensive application, followed by a series of tests and requirements. It would take an awful lot of orders to make that worthwhile.
03-29-2002, 07:36 PM
#52
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you considered the Aerocharger? "The world's only variable-geometry, self-contained, ball bearing turbocharger." Seems ideal for your stated objectives.
Stu
Stu
03-29-2002, 08:42 PM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Mugen2000 but you need to read:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
especially this page:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo4.htm
The exhaust temperature has nothing to do with intake temperature. Please understand turbos before you provide input.
Sorry but you asked for it with the above comment.
smanders
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
especially this page:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo4.htm
The exhaust temperature has nothing to do with intake temperature. Please understand turbos before you provide input.
Sorry but you asked for it with the above comment.
smanders
03-29-2002, 11:37 PM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: San Jose
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by AusS2000
As for CARB approval: I doubt it.
From my understanding CARB involves a fairly expensive application, followed by a series of tests and requirements. It would take an awful lot of orders to make that worthwhile.
As for CARB approval: I doubt it.
From my understanding CARB involves a fairly expensive application, followed by a series of tests and requirements. It would take an awful lot of orders to make that worthwhile.
Do a poll before you write of CA.
03-30-2002, 12:18 AM
#56
Moderator
Thread Starter
Would somebody let me know what the requirements are for CARB approval of an aftermarket turbo system?
What I'll do is see what sort of response I get to the initial launch and, if it's feasible, plan a trip to CA to get the approval done with a customer's car.
What I'll do is see what sort of response I get to the initial launch and, if it's feasible, plan a trip to CA to get the approval done with a customer's car.
03-30-2002, 03:11 AM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
California Air Resources Board exemption applications are available here.
If you haven't already done so, you may wish to pick up a copy of \"Maximum Boost : Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems by Corky Bell\". It's also available at amazon.com with sample pages.
Stu
If you haven't already done so, you may wish to pick up a copy of \"Maximum Boost : Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems by Corky Bell\". It's also available at amazon.com with sample pages.
Stu
04-01-2002, 02:42 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heya AusS2000, just came across this thread today, and I have to say I'm impressed. While you are undertaking a project that has a lot of serious technical issues, I'm sure that your end product will be very lucrative to a lot of people. I just have a couple of comments which I don't think have been touched on.
While Team Hybrid may not have phrased it the most "consumer-friendly" way, he does have a point about tuning. By drastically changing the shape of the fuel curve, the stock ECU will not be well equipped to provide the proper amount of fuel for each spark cycle. The way that we have "augmented" the stock ECU (since it doesn't read boost) is by wiring it up to a Vortech FMU which increases fuel pressure according to the amount of boost. However, this produces a torque curve that is a little lumpy, as the ECU is programmed specifically characteristics of the engine. Narrow throttle at 4000 rpms while at about -0psi (roughly equivalent to full throttle on an NA application) will not be providing enough fuel and you may find yourself slightly too lean (although not dangerously so). WOT at 4000 rpms and at full boost, you may find yourself too rich (just from personal experience). When I first got my turbo, I didn't have the VAFC installed and although I ran a higher boost than it seems you are planning to, I had "lumpiness" problems, as small variations in the optimum fuel curve differed from the shape of the stock fuel curve af various throttle percentages. Technically, it would be better described as the shape of the fuel PLANE (throttle % one axis, fuel % another axis, rpms another axis) was different in the turbo and stock application. The VAFC is a small bandaid for this in that it allows tuning at 3 throttle levels, 0-10%, 10-50%, and 50-WOT (which is also configurable). A better solution is Motec or the AEM EMS, although obviously far more expensive. 300 bucks for the VAFC and a couple hours tuning, versus 1-2,000 for the engine management systems and a good amount of tuning.
I wish you luck, but just be aware of the issues and try not to let peoples politics or personal attachments to various methods get in the way of what knowledge is out there. I'd hate for you to come close to making something really special and end up having to use methods that people have already found out. Going the hard way is never a lot of fun.
While Team Hybrid may not have phrased it the most "consumer-friendly" way, he does have a point about tuning. By drastically changing the shape of the fuel curve, the stock ECU will not be well equipped to provide the proper amount of fuel for each spark cycle. The way that we have "augmented" the stock ECU (since it doesn't read boost) is by wiring it up to a Vortech FMU which increases fuel pressure according to the amount of boost. However, this produces a torque curve that is a little lumpy, as the ECU is programmed specifically characteristics of the engine. Narrow throttle at 4000 rpms while at about -0psi (roughly equivalent to full throttle on an NA application) will not be providing enough fuel and you may find yourself slightly too lean (although not dangerously so). WOT at 4000 rpms and at full boost, you may find yourself too rich (just from personal experience). When I first got my turbo, I didn't have the VAFC installed and although I ran a higher boost than it seems you are planning to, I had "lumpiness" problems, as small variations in the optimum fuel curve differed from the shape of the stock fuel curve af various throttle percentages. Technically, it would be better described as the shape of the fuel PLANE (throttle % one axis, fuel % another axis, rpms another axis) was different in the turbo and stock application. The VAFC is a small bandaid for this in that it allows tuning at 3 throttle levels, 0-10%, 10-50%, and 50-WOT (which is also configurable). A better solution is Motec or the AEM EMS, although obviously far more expensive. 300 bucks for the VAFC and a couple hours tuning, versus 1-2,000 for the engine management systems and a good amount of tuning.
I wish you luck, but just be aware of the issues and try not to let peoples politics or personal attachments to various methods get in the way of what knowledge is out there. I'd hate for you to come close to making something really special and end up having to use methods that people have already found out. Going the hard way is never a lot of fun.
04-01-2002, 02:53 PM
#60
Moderator
Thread Starter
Now that IS the kind of feedback I'm after! Thanks ChrisD for taking the time.
My discussions so far with the shop have led to a bit more understanding and I agree, some sort of fuel tuning is required. You can't just go and shove heaps more air into an engine and expect the ECU to provide adequate fuel.
What sort of dollars is the Vortech FMU? Is a VAFC alone enough for my application? What about an additional injectors triggered by a second control unit?
My discussions so far with the shop have led to a bit more understanding and I agree, some sort of fuel tuning is required. You can't just go and shove heaps more air into an engine and expect the ECU to provide adequate fuel.
What sort of dollars is the Vortech FMU? Is a VAFC alone enough for my application? What about an additional injectors triggered by a second control unit?