heresnowhy

That was the only point I was trying to make to the OP. Yes warmer tires would have helped. But the root of the point was this. My daily commute, no hard driving, just going to work the same route every day, and with the new rear bar, it was a drastic difference in handling even at the lower limit. That was all.

RED MX5

It is still a driver error, but that exactly what some people would do.

Excessive oversteer can quickly get the best of even the best drivers. When Tripper and Ryan first set up Thunder (the first CCR autocross Miata) they dialed in a little too much oversteer. I kept trying to convince Tripper to dial it down a little, but I think the car was so much fun to drive that he just didn't want to change it. It was pretty funny, and revealing, when he took the car to the Evolution Phase 2 school last year. Evolution instructors NEVER slide cars around, and spinning out is a real no-no. They're supposed to set a good example. However, BOTH of the instructors assigned to Tripper (and Thunder) managed to totally lose control of the car and execute really spectacular spins. These were top notch national champion autocrossers who were trying NOT to slide the car around AT ALL, and they stll manage to spin out. If it can happen to them, it can happen to anyone.

Excessive oversteer is an absolute blast when it comes to fun, but it is an unstable condition that can get even the best drivers into trouble.

RACER

The OE tires are Potenza S-02, they are the grippyest tire for the AP1's. If you had a stiffer bar in the front, not just a stiffer bar in the rear, and OEM in the front, but stiffer front and rear to achieve balance



[QUOTE=heresnowhy,Jun 23 2007, 11:38 PM]I wasn't driving hard at all, in fact i was sipping my coffee while making the turn on my way to work, the first stop light outta my neighborhood.

Doubtful anyone will disagree.

jyeung528

are you sure you're not exagerating just a LITTLE bit?

RED MX5

The only time my back tires have slid under light power application was when I ran them until almost all the tread was gone, and then took off with cold tires, on a surface that was covered with soapy water. I knew it was slick and was taking it really easy because I knew the back tires didn't have enough tread, but all it took was the very slightest of acceleration to break the tires lose. Even then though, the car did not even begin to get out of hand, and a little less pressure on the throttle got the tail tucked right back in. Still, it was pretty darn sudden, and I can see where it could get away from someone if they weren't on their toes (and drinking coffee while driving doesn't seem like being on one's toes to me).

The car really can't just start sliding for no reason. I've heard people here CLAIM that it did, many times, but since it's not possible for the car to slide without the driver giving it some input, it is quite literally, always due to a driver error. The car doesn't help though, because it's not terribly forgiving of our little errors, and can turn them into major blunders pretty quickly, especially if we're not paying attention to our driving or have cold or worn tires. A little finesse goes a long way, and under unfavorable conditions it can easily take more than just a little.

heresnowhy

I had put a front and rear swift bar on. yeah the tires were cold, no i wasn't driving hard, driving like normal. For those that can't comprehend the point of my post... I don't recommend a rear bar for stock size tires, even if a front bar is added to an ap1. Was it driver error, no doubt. But my point was with the stock sway bar in place, that would not occur and didn't occur any other day after I removed the bar. I don't care what stock tires the car came with, not sure the relevance of that comment. Just try to give one man's opinion to help him make an educated decision without wasting money like I and many others had done. I am not the only one to have done this.

Furthermore, instead of explaining my driving experience or chassis setup. Let's all just assume I am THE worst S2000 driver ever that has never ever had a vehicle accident in twenty years of driving.

RED MX5

LOL, judging by how long you've been registered here on S2kI, it looks like you've survived two and a half years of ownership, so you're a LONG way from being the worst S2000 driver here. For all I know I may have a record, having managed to have a little boo-boo in my car within just hours of buying the thing (and given my experience, that's pretty hard to excuse, no matter what factors contributed to the situation). I've been driving for over 40 years, without a single at-fault accident; However, my mom has been driving even longer, and has only had one at-fault accident in all those years, and it apparently doesn't mean much, because she is one of the worst drivers I've ever encountered. I have a good driving record, but I don't think it has anything to do with my being a good driver (or not ), because so many horrible drivers have similar records.

Maybe that ^^^ is a little off topic, but I totally agree with you regarding anti-sway bars. On a car with OEM tires it does not make sense to change the bars unless you want to change the handling (more or less oversteer/understeer). The car really does not need any additional reduciton in body roll until you upgrade the rubber. IF you want a little less oversteer in the early cars then a FSB that is a little stiffer than the OEM bar will help, but the only bar I know of that comes close is the $600.00 Gendron bar (with thin walled center section). It's a nice piece that has a good range of adjustability, for owners that can benefit from such things, but it's probably overkill for a car that is only driven on the street.

You can also tune the handling a little using alignment.

RACER

Sorry, I assumed you had just a rear bar. I fully understand what you meant by not recommending aftermarket anti-roll bars. What I was trying to say was, with the right aftermarket anti-roll bars, you could achieve not only balance, but a car that doesen't dramatically roll from side to side when turning left or right.

Coming out of T11 at Sears Point, the mofo was rolled as far as it could go. It was pretty well leaned over



My car was bone stock, with the exception of "aftermarket race pads, and Ate type 200 brake fluid". With 6,500 hard miles on the stock tires during the track day in April 2004, I was sliding pretty heavily coming out of T11. T1 was sketchy, cause my car had soo much friggin lean, that I did not feel confident going above 85 mph in turn 1


When you have a slight dip in the middle of a high speed corner (T1 at Sears) you dun't want a car that has a lot of roll, or lean



*best time on used shitty tires 2:2.90*

RACER

And a lot of body roll

RED MX5

Hey Racer, do me a favor.

I know autocrossing isn't tracking, but shouldn't the body roll be the same at max cornering speed? Take a look at the 8th. and 9th. photo on this page. In the 8th. photo the car is cranked hard over, has full grip, and that's about as much body roll as I ever see. In the 9th. photo the car is sliding around the corner (I'm playing at drifting ); You can tell the direction of travel by the skid marks on the pavement, and can see that I'm sliding the tail around to make the car go around the corner, while steering in the opposite dirtection (not the quick way around the turn, but like I said, I was just playing around at half fast drifting). In a total slide like in the 9th. photo there is VERY LITTLE roll, because the tires are sliding rather than slipping, so grip is down (so the photos show why grip is quicker than sliding the car around), but my question is this. Does it look to you like my car has too much body roll? For me it seems to have *just enough* to communicate well. I think any less would make the car pretty hard to read (and maybe a little twitchy over bumps if the roll stiffness is increased too much). Don't you need at least 2-degrees of roll to be able to feel what the car is doing?
(Hahaha, FWIW, I got the 2-degree number from Niki Lauda. )