J's racing f22C
02-17-2005, 12:45 PM
#121
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Originally Posted by ultimate lurker' date='Feb 17 2005, 01:34 PM
The J's website states that their crate engine, in conjunction with other J's parts, made 300 hp. I'll bet those parts included a big throttle body in addition to their ECU. David's car starts and runs on a stock ECU, but is too lean for my liking.
Terd, I disagree, the numbers don't support your assertion. You can't compare one dyno to another for one thing. And, David's motor, even using 1AP12NV's web quoted numbers, cost only $6600. And the motor, internally, is largely stock. You get a mild valve job and some Ti retainers for reliability. Skip the valve job if you want, even the retainers since we're only revving the engine to 8200 rpm. We know a full head port on a mild NA engine is worth less about 10 hp right now, the valve job is probably worth half that, but you can save money. And the power output is about 10 hp less than the J's crate motor when tuned - and that same J's motor just includes a bunch of stock parts anyways. When the dyno graphs get posted (I have sent them to an admin here), you'll also see that the midrange is where the big gains are at - upwards of 35 lbs-ft of torque at 5000 rpm.
The point being, as AusS2000 put it, is that for 30% less than what J's charges for just the basic engine (no bolt-ons, no engine management, etc.) you can get a basically stock F22C to make almost the same power. And I'll bet it could match the J's engine with a TB and the like. If you feel the need to spend the extra $$$, invest in a nice Canton remote oil filter, oil cooler, etc. for about $700. And then spend some $900 on some Toda cams and another $400 on some Toda cam gears. Still less than the J's motor and I'll bet you make more.
UL
p.s. - David's motor was dyno'd with 200 miles on it and runs heavier oils in the diff, tranny and engine than stock cars due to the rigors of racing . I'll bet it makes a little more now, and would make even more with stock fluids. The comparison motor I've included in the dyno sheets had 5000 miles on it. Maybe I should open up a crate motor business...
Terd, I disagree, the numbers don't support your assertion. You can't compare one dyno to another for one thing. And, David's motor, even using 1AP12NV's web quoted numbers, cost only $6600. And the motor, internally, is largely stock. You get a mild valve job and some Ti retainers for reliability. Skip the valve job if you want, even the retainers since we're only revving the engine to 8200 rpm. We know a full head port on a mild NA engine is worth less about 10 hp right now, the valve job is probably worth half that, but you can save money. And the power output is about 10 hp less than the J's crate motor when tuned - and that same J's motor just includes a bunch of stock parts anyways. When the dyno graphs get posted (I have sent them to an admin here), you'll also see that the midrange is where the big gains are at - upwards of 35 lbs-ft of torque at 5000 rpm.
The point being, as AusS2000 put it, is that for 30% less than what J's charges for just the basic engine (no bolt-ons, no engine management, etc.) you can get a basically stock F22C to make almost the same power. And I'll bet it could match the J's engine with a TB and the like. If you feel the need to spend the extra $$$, invest in a nice Canton remote oil filter, oil cooler, etc. for about $700. And then spend some $900 on some Toda cams and another $400 on some Toda cam gears. Still less than the J's motor and I'll bet you make more.
UL
p.s. - David's motor was dyno'd with 200 miles on it and runs heavier oils in the diff, tranny and engine than stock cars due to the rigors of racing . I'll bet it makes a little more now, and would make even more with stock fluids. The comparison motor I've included in the dyno sheets had 5000 miles on it. Maybe I should open up a crate motor business...
With all due respect, we just disagree that the J's motor is a good deal for the money. I'm not saying David's motor is not a good deal for the money. I am saying that all the people running down JDM parts as being too expensive, aren't fully enlightened on the facts. Us engine builders are as good as they come. However, there are no current suppliers of S 2000 crate motors, unlike "the Beast B18" by Mr Gasket or whoever. So people running down J's racing's crate motor as being too expensive for the results it provides is simply not based in reality.
02-17-2005, 12:47 PM
#122
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Originally Posted by ultimate lurker' date='Feb 17 2005, 01:41 PM
Yeah, but then you don't need to pay for the head, valve cover, etc. from David's engine. Which knocks the price down for a domestically assembled 290 hp motor to about $4000 with headwork and retainers. Still looks like the better value to me.
UL
UL
02-17-2005, 12:47 PM
#123
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Originally Posted by 1AP12NV' date='Feb 17 2005, 08:27 AM
I make it a habit never to argue with UL because he definitely knows his stuff. 
However, I would like to clear up some of the pricing quoted. For someone who isn't a jobber for Honda (and has to pay retail so I used hondaautomotiveparts.com as a guide) you could build a similar setup to Karner's for (INCLUDING A NEW HEAD SINCE WE'RE COMPARING THIS ENGINE TO A CRATE ENGINE):
- New Shortblock F22C From Honda - $2609.53
- New Valve Cover/Oil Cap/Plug Cover (have to match what you get with a crate) - $252
- New F20C Head From Honda - $2332.09
- Alaniz Valve Job - $800
- Ti Retainers - $300
- Assembly Labor - ~$400
- AEM EMS - $1400
Total for estimated 285-290 Crank HP: $8093 ($6693 without the EMS, but then we'd need to see numbers with a stock ECU to compare).
That number assumes that everything else on the car is stock.
Now *IF* the number of 522,900 Yen for the J's Crate is correct. That means one could probably get this for about $9,000.
So I don't see that its ridiculously more expensive than the domestic alternative (especially because the J's come with yes the J's Valvecover, SPL Oil Pan, SPL Oil Cap, which whether you care about them or not people do pay hundreds of dollars for) As for price it doesnt seem ridiculous that a motor from japan would be 2k more.
Now as for which one makes more power? They both are claiming about the same amount of power. Lets see dyno plots for each setup and a list of EXACTLY what was used (bolt ons or no and what computers were used) until we see that information side by side this argument is pretty futile if you ask me
However, I would like to clear up some of the pricing quoted. For someone who isn't a jobber for Honda (and has to pay retail so I used hondaautomotiveparts.com as a guide) you could build a similar setup to Karner's for (INCLUDING A NEW HEAD SINCE WE'RE COMPARING THIS ENGINE TO A CRATE ENGINE):- New Shortblock F22C From Honda - $2609.53
- New Valve Cover/Oil Cap/Plug Cover (have to match what you get with a crate) - $252
- New F20C Head From Honda - $2332.09
- Alaniz Valve Job - $800
- Ti Retainers - $300
- Assembly Labor - ~$400
- AEM EMS - $1400
Total for estimated 285-290 Crank HP: $8093 ($6693 without the EMS, but then we'd need to see numbers with a stock ECU to compare).
That number assumes that everything else on the car is stock.
Now *IF* the number of 522,900 Yen for the J's Crate is correct. That means one could probably get this for about $9,000.
So I don't see that its ridiculously more expensive than the domestic alternative (especially because the J's come with yes the J's Valvecover, SPL Oil Pan, SPL Oil Cap, which whether you care about them or not people do pay hundreds of dollars for) As for price it doesnt seem ridiculous that a motor from japan would be 2k more.
Now as for which one makes more power? They both are claiming about the same amount of power. Lets see dyno plots for each setup and a list of EXACTLY what was used (bolt ons or no and what computers were used) until we see that information side by side this argument is pretty futile if you ask me
02-17-2005, 12:49 PM
#124
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Originally Posted by AusS2000' date='Feb 17 2005, 09:00 PM
Me thinks you just put it in to make the costs closer to support your argument.
02-17-2005, 12:51 PM
#125
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Originally Posted by AusS2000' date='Feb 17 2005, 01:41 PM
That's pretty good... if you intend to move to Japan.
If you don't then let's get real. You either need to pay the non-exchange price, ship a motor to Japan, or source one in Japan and have it shipped to J's.
You then need to consider freight, duty, etc.
These are all real world issues and add to the price and inconvenience.
If we're just racing on paper it might sound great, but in the real world it's a very different story.
If you don't then let's get real. You either need to pay the non-exchange price, ship a motor to Japan, or source one in Japan and have it shipped to J's.
You then need to consider freight, duty, etc.
These are all real world issues and add to the price and inconvenience.
If we're just racing on paper it might sound great, but in the real world it's a very different story.
02-17-2005, 12:54 PM
#126
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Whats more my only ARGUMENT is that an extra ~2400 for engine from halfway around the world is not ridiculous nor outrageous.
As for which one makes more power, I don't believe I made any assertions (in fact I took it as assumed that both made the same power).
As for which one you should buy? I certainly don't care. When I start paying for your parts I can get a say as to where that money goes and likewise when you start buying parts for mine you get to say what is and isn't a waste of money.
The whole "brand name" vs. "non brand name" debate is nothing new and is not isolated to cars. Those that believe there is an inherent advantage to buying name brand will and those that don't will always scoff at the price.
(oh and I resent the implication that anyone that would buy a JDM crate motor was buying it for the color of the valve cover)
As for which one makes more power, I don't believe I made any assertions (in fact I took it as assumed that both made the same power).
As for which one you should buy? I certainly don't care. When I start paying for your parts I can get a say as to where that money goes and likewise when you start buying parts for mine you get to say what is and isn't a waste of money.
The whole "brand name" vs. "non brand name" debate is nothing new and is not isolated to cars. Those that believe there is an inherent advantage to buying name brand will and those that don't will always scoff at the price.
(oh and I resent the implication that anyone that would buy a JDM crate motor was buying it for the color of the valve cover)
02-17-2005, 12:54 PM
#127
Hey, read my sig, then read my location and see if you still need to ask if I've shipped international or not.
I also sold over 40 Aus Air Intake Extensions to the UK and the USA.
I can assure you, I know freight.
All I'm saying is that you JDM'ers seem to be including costs that support your argument (like oil caps) and ignoring ones that don't (like freight).
I also sold over 40 Aus Air Intake Extensions to the UK and the USA.
I can assure you, I know freight.
All I'm saying is that you JDM'ers seem to be including costs that support your argument (like oil caps) and ignoring ones that don't (like freight).
02-17-2005, 12:55 PM
#128
Registered User
Yes, we respectfully disagree.
The J's motor will need an ECU upgrade as well. Because you don't gain 40 hp from stock without needing more fuel. So you guys really need to get off that kick. Additionally, the Mugen/Spoon/J's ECUs from Japan all cost about as much as an AEM EMS and provide _far_ less functionality.
And let's get the numbers clear. With a new block, new head, valve cover, etc., outside assembly and porting/retainers, David's motor would be $6600 retail. If you're going to consider exchanges, keep your head, valve cover, etc and save $2500 (which David did).
The problem I have with the J's engine is that its a pretty much stock engine (much like David's) being sold for at least 50% more than what its worth, especially when you consider that J's probably gets the parts from Honda for far less than the prices that we pay here in the US from the local dealer. The reason everyone was oohing and ahhing is the 300 ps number (297 hp?). If that number was amazingly high, I'd be right there drooling. But guess what? Its not. Its obtainable by virtually anyone, including a bunch of amateur racers on a budget.
UL
The J's motor will need an ECU upgrade as well. Because you don't gain 40 hp from stock without needing more fuel. So you guys really need to get off that kick. Additionally, the Mugen/Spoon/J's ECUs from Japan all cost about as much as an AEM EMS and provide _far_ less functionality.
And let's get the numbers clear. With a new block, new head, valve cover, etc., outside assembly and porting/retainers, David's motor would be $6600 retail. If you're going to consider exchanges, keep your head, valve cover, etc and save $2500 (which David did).
The problem I have with the J's engine is that its a pretty much stock engine (much like David's) being sold for at least 50% more than what its worth, especially when you consider that J's probably gets the parts from Honda for far less than the prices that we pay here in the US from the local dealer. The reason everyone was oohing and ahhing is the 300 ps number (297 hp?). If that number was amazingly high, I'd be right there drooling. But guess what? Its not. Its obtainable by virtually anyone, including a bunch of amateur racers on a budget.
UL
02-17-2005, 12:56 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by terd ferguson' date='Feb 17 2005, 02:04 PM
According to J's site, you get valve and port grinding too. You also get their valve cover, oil cap, oil filter lock (which is very trick), and oil pan. Thier price on their site for the 2 liter is 498000 yen with exchange.
This is still a good deal for a hand assembled and balanced motor, I don't care what anyone says.
http://www.jsracing.co.jp/
Go to S 2000, then on the pull down menu, select engine parts to see more details.
Oh yeah, make it easy on yourself and select english. The translations alone are worth the visit.
This is still a good deal for a hand assembled and balanced motor, I don't care what anyone says.
http://www.jsracing.co.jp/
Go to S 2000, then on the pull down menu, select engine parts to see more details.
Oh yeah, make it easy on yourself and select english. The translations alone are worth the visit.
With the motor that UL is talking about, assuming you have a perfectly good motor, you could sell it for $2000 pretty easily, and come out even more ahead. Shipping a motor to japan is EASILY $200-$500 depending on what method you use and how quickly you want to get your core charge back.
02-17-2005, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ultimate lurker' date='Feb 17 2005, 01:34 PM
Maybe I should open up a crate motor business...
And why can't we get that guy w/ the J's motor to dyno again?...I don't think anyone ever addressed that. How can you spend that much on a motor and not dyno it? I think there'd even be members here that would help pay for the dyno run, or at least a dyno facility that might be willing to help settle the debate (and get exposure on s2ki for their services and help).