Jah2000

Had an inspection done for my new/1st S2k at Ballade today. I didn’t get a PPI before I purchased her (the seller and I both had tight time/schedule constraints); but, I did go through a huge check-list before I bought the car (the S2ki’s “buyers-guide” list). Wanted to make sure everything was fine and if it needed anything though.







The previous owner had an Exedy oem replacement clutch (resurfaced stock flywheel) and a new oem Honda TCT installed very recently, within the last month or around 100-150 miles ago. I wasn’t sure if it was just me or if there was something slightly wrong with take-off/engagement from 1st gear (because I’ve been driving only an automatic Tacoma for the past 13+ years and also living elsewhere in diff cities with no car at all .. so, obviously I am not used to a manual transmission anymore). The last manual cars I had were in the ‘90s - EG and S13, both modded, swapped engines and suspension upgrades). I kinda felt like it was too grabby, “chatter’y” and not that smooth (heavy and similar to a 6-puck high-performance clutch). I thought maybe it just needs to get broken in perhaps (since it only has 100 miles on it..and iirc, I think new clutches need at least 500 miles for break-in). But the other side of me thought it was just me not being used to a manual tranny, (probably 70-80% of my instincts), especially knowing it has a heavier pressure plate, like I've read the Exedy does indeed have.

Alex then told me there is something wrong with the way the clutch was grabbing, engaging and slipping (but he didn't test-drive it..only quickly pulled it in the garage).. he said something is wrong with either the clutch, a bent/damaged fork or maybe the previous installer didn’t do a great job installing it; and, that my current clutch will eventually fail soon and not go into gear at all (when it does fail). Which, kinda related to my previous thought and confusion why my clutch and car was a tad harder to drive than other manuals, from what I’ve remembered (either my old manual cars, or friend’s manual cars)...but, again, it's been 13+ years since I've had a manual trans car. A clutch job is going to be a little pricey (especially after just buying this car, tax and other new-owner fixes/maintenance here and there, etc.). But, hopefully, the clutch will last a little longer, or maybe it’ll get better after break-in, or maybe there is nothing wrong with it at all.. irdk what to think (especially since it's a brand new clutch) or if the fork really is bent or damaged from the previous installer, or what ..so I may be looking at eventually getting a new clutch, if anything gets worse.

And the worrisome news - the compression check. The results were 200, 220, 230, 240 (cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4). Cylinders 2, 3 and 4 looked really good and were pumping some healthy numbers (though, not consistent across the board; like how many say it ought to be); but, cylinder 1 was a bit low compared to the rest and is borderline bad (ie: if less than 200, it is bad, if I'm not mistaken). He then proceeded to do a leak-down test to see if it was coming from the block or head. The block turned out to be fine and determined the low compression from cylinder 1 was coming from somewhere in the head/valve-train - maybe a tapped valve, perhaps from a high-rev mis-shift, idk. He also noted it needs a valve adjustment asap (it’s out of spec bigtime...iirc, it was 2-4 valve-blade-guides off spec, depending which valve). So, bad news for me. But, I guess it could be worse (like a bad block, bad rings, scored cylinder walls, etc.). But, to me, it really feels like it runs fine and smooth (but then again, this is my first S2k, so I don't really know how smooth it's supposed to be).

The leak-down results were - 0% cylinder 4 (pretty much perfect), and 20% cylinder 1 (borderline bad…I think I’ve read <10% is normal range and >30% is in need of a rebuild..I’m not too sure though). Obviously, a valve job and head rebuild is going to be expensive, not something I want to do nor can afford right now. But, Alex suggested a cheaper/quick fix for me to bring up the compression, which was getting their timing-correction-gear (with a complimentary valve adjustment). Which made sense..since (I think?) bad cam-to-crank timing would affect compression; but, I'm not sure how much timing has to be "off" to actually affect compression (I'd think it needs to be off by a huge amount, if I had to guess). Doesn't out-of-spec valve-lash affect compression too? So, I plan on doing that very soon. Hopefully my compression and leak-down numbers improve (fingers crossed).

All in all…Ballade and Alex seemed great. Their maintenance/repair/labor costs are very fair and good prices. But, to be honest and frank, I felt like he was trying to push and up-sell me his products I didn't really need right now. Don't get me wrong though; I love their approach, passion and product ideas.. I'm def interested in trying some of their parts and that timing-gear. I also felt it was a little odd he didn't even get it on a lift nor even test-drove it. The inspection consisted only of a compression check and leak-down. Which is fair enough.. because after all, those are the most important, most expensive, main and major components of the car - the heart of the vehicle. And, also because I told him the car drove straight and there was nothing wrong with the handling/suspension as far as I could tell. So he focused on the engine/drivetrain.


After a bit of research, it sounds like it might be just my valve clearance/lash (I keep reading a truly bent/tapped valve would give super low numbers and run noticeably bad…well below 200). eg: This OP’s problem sounds Very similar to mine:
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/101...kdown-results/

I'm really hoping it's just the valve-lash. I haven't done a valve-adjustment (nor even worked on cars at all) since the late '90s; so, my confidence in "wrenching" is pretty low currently. And, I also need a new torque-wrench still (my current one is probably out of calibration..as it's 15+ years, stored and unused in garage ever since). Otherwise, I'd do a valve-adjustment myself asap in my garage. So, for now, I'll have a shop do it instead.



- What are your guy’s opinion of my compression and leak-down numbers?

- What do you think is wrong with my compression? Bent or burnt valve? Worn valve guide? Out of spec valve-lash?

- Your suggestions on how to fix it?

- Is a 20% leak-down result really bad and in need of a head/valve job?

- Will a timing-correction-gear help my compression problem?

- Can a valve-adjustment fix my compression? It was out of spec by 2-4 valve-blade-guides when he showed me iirc.

- Is my clutch really bad? Even though it’s practically brand new from the previous owner?



Any help greatly appreciated.

LeonV

A valve adjustment absolutely needs to be done ASAP. I'm very surprised the shop took the time to check it but didn't do it right there and then (unless you declined the work). Checking the lash is most of the labor anyway. Out-of-spec valve lash will most definitely cause uneven compression numbers.

Neither 200psi of compression nor 20% leakdown warrants a rebuild, although 20% leakdown isn't great. A good tech can figure out where the leakage is coming from, when performing a leakdown test. There is no need to install aftermarket cam sprockets. I'd have the valves adjusted and redo the compression and leakdown tests if you so desire.

As far as the clutch goes, it's hard to say what's going on based on the info given. If it's just grabby or chattery, then it likely needs more break-in miles. Try not to ride the clutch too much, i.e. put excessive heat into it. See how it feels in 500-1000 miles. I've noticed certain Exedy clutches have very chattery engagement until they're thoroughly broken in.

Jah2000

Thanks a bunch Leon!

I'll def get a valve adjustment followed by a compression check done asap/tomorrow. I'll have a professional shop do it; since my fingers/feel haven't done it in so long. Crossing my fingers it is just the valve-lash and not a tapped/bent/burnt valve

Also crossing my fingers my clutch is alright too.

Jah2000

Actually, he just kept advising me to get the timing-correction-gear and that it would help with cyl1 compression and that should be the #1 priority right now. Of course, he said that the valve-lash was out of spec bigtime too and that needs to be addressed as well; but, he did not mention it would help the compression at all nor was related to it (I've been out of the car game a long time..so I totally forgot). He actually told me it was a waste of money to do a valve-adjustment before anything else performed, because it most likely wouldn't help (ie: before installing the advised timing-gear, or pulling the head to get new valves (which we didn't get into, because he knew I had a very limited/tight budget). So, that's pretty much why I didn't get the valve-adjustment then-and-there - it wasn't advised/recommended to be done.

LeonV

Sounds like a good plan to me!

Billman250

It is impossible for a retimed gear to fix uneven compression.

I can't believe what I'm reading.

Car Analogy

I can see where a valve adjustment could correct low compression, if the valves were out of spec.

I have a hard time understanding how a timing correction gear can correct low compression in one cylinder.

Sent from my SM-G920P using IB AutoGroup

Billman250

That's because it is mechanically impossible.

Let's say for argument sake that a cam timing adjustment could affect compression, it would effect all cylinders equally.

IF you have low comp, I promise you cam timing has nothing to do with it.

Get a proper diagnosis before you do any work at all.

steven975

So, they don't advise the 30 minute valve adjustment, which could very well fix the problem, and instead want to pull the head?

Hopefully I'm just reading this wrong, but to advocate pulling the head in lieu of a valve adjustment is...concerning. Then the showing how out-of-spec the valves are...which means 95% of the valve adjustment process was done and they didn't want to adjust it right quick?

LeonV

And to add, if you get another compression check done, make sure they go back to the first cylinder again as a double-check. I always do this to eliminate battery voltage issues, etc.

We only see one side of the story here and things can get lost in translation but if the PO's account of the situation is accurate, I would not go back to that shop.