How much force can the rear bumper mounts take?
09-01-2004, 11:35 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC,Sep 1 2004, 02:11 PM
Quick question....why did you ask us, if you so sure about it, and not listening anyway....
Anywho, let me answer your question directly,
What are you attaching the hitch to? The tow hook? or rear bumper beam?
Towhook will rip right out, and the bumper support will kink in half.
2800lbs of pull (hill) on the s2000 rear beams will def "warp" them at LEAST a few degrees.
Dont do it, its just not worth it.
I will put $$$ down on you breaking something.
Anywho, let me answer your question directly,
What are you attaching the hitch to? The tow hook? or rear bumper beam?
Towhook will rip right out, and the bumper support will kink in half.
2800lbs of pull (hill) on the s2000 rear beams will def "warp" them at LEAST a few degrees.
Dont do it, its just not worth it.
I will put $$$ down on you breaking something.
This is why I rarely ever post here. Back to UTH for me...
09-01-2004, 11:45 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD,Sep 1 2004, 02:21 PM
Ok so I had a great response all prepared and I get to the bottom and see that you guessed it to. I agree the biggest issue is that ramp and the associated forces there. It's the incline that kills you and the degree of incline. Depending upon the boat ramp it may be considerably more than what you'd see on normal highways.Now one concern I have about even the TL towing it, since you are significantly exceeding the load requirements of the hitch, are you sure that the bolts that attach the hitch to the car are going to survive long term? I'd be concerned that they could shear off under the stress. Something that you might want to periodically inspect for signs of wear/stress.
BTW, one of the reasons why I was considering this is that I have been carrying my race tires around on a TireTail, which exceeds the tongue weight rating of the hitch by about 100%. The tires weigh about 200 lbs, which is fine, but the geometry of the TireTail turns that 200 lbs into at least 400 lbs of tongue weight. Since there is no suspension on the TireTail, that 400 lbs of tongue weight could be 800 lbs of shock over bumps. I haven't had any problems with it.
09-01-2004, 12:21 PM
#33
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Ahhhh...I hadn't factored that in interesting force dynamics where the tounge is actually acting somewhat like a lever....hmmmm...
OK so first off this actually has the potential to turn into an interesting technical discussion, even if you ultimately decide not to do it. Probably belong UTH at this point. Ask blureds2k I'm sure he'd move it(or any other mods).
Ok so I think I get primarily what you're asking(the bumper reference threw me for a bit) SO caveat my physics is rusty...but I see three potential points of concern when you're towing something that heavy. These are the bolts to attach the hitch to the car, the mount points on the hitch and the mount points on the car(what I believe you are referring to as bumper mounts right?).
Since the car is technically not designed tow anything it is unclear what the mounting points on the car would be rated to and I doubt anyone has tried. However considering the strength of the frame this may be the least of the three issues.
To me bigger issues are the mount points on the hitch and the bolts may be more of a concern since you are exceeding the design rating by 50% or so. Who knows if they'll hold, break right away or slowly deteriorate. However since you have experience with the TL(and I assume same hitch), maybe it'll be ok but something to watch.
Now on to my physics related concern(warning I'm rusty). I would think that towing on major highways would be less stressful than a boat ramp. On level ground the major stresses will come from starting and stoping and overcoming inertial forces. Inclines(or declines) seem to be more of a concern. The greater the incline the greater amount of weight of the boat+trailer that the hitch will have to support. On highways, due to the number of semi-trucks, I would doubt you'd often run into significant grades, so your hitch may not be under that much stress from the weight of the trailer.
However a boat ramp is different(or at least the ones I've been on), the grades tend to be fairly steep which will put more stress on the hitch than merely climbing hills on a highway. In addition there is possible that there may be a temporary increase in force at the moment that the boat comes out of the water. At this point the weight of the boat is not supported by the water and is fully supported by the trailer. This transition of weight to the trailer, could cause a similar effect to hitting a bump on the highway, causing an increase of force on the hitch due to the lever like behavior of the tounge. This increase in force in an already high stress situation would worry me.
OK that's my impressions and I'm not claiming to be 100% right, my physics is rusty. Consider them conversation starters that the physics guru's can slap me around if I'm wrong
OK so first off this actually has the potential to turn into an interesting technical discussion, even if you ultimately decide not to do it. Probably belong UTH at this point. Ask blureds2k I'm sure he'd move it(or any other mods).
Ok so I think I get primarily what you're asking(the bumper reference threw me for a bit) SO caveat my physics is rusty...but I see three potential points of concern when you're towing something that heavy. These are the bolts to attach the hitch to the car, the mount points on the hitch and the mount points on the car(what I believe you are referring to as bumper mounts right?).
Since the car is technically not designed tow anything it is unclear what the mounting points on the car would be rated to and I doubt anyone has tried. However considering the strength of the frame this may be the least of the three issues.
To me bigger issues are the mount points on the hitch and the bolts may be more of a concern since you are exceeding the design rating by 50% or so. Who knows if they'll hold, break right away or slowly deteriorate. However since you have experience with the TL(and I assume same hitch), maybe it'll be ok but something to watch.
Now on to my physics related concern(warning I'm rusty). I would think that towing on major highways would be less stressful than a boat ramp. On level ground the major stresses will come from starting and stoping and overcoming inertial forces. Inclines(or declines) seem to be more of a concern. The greater the incline the greater amount of weight of the boat+trailer that the hitch will have to support. On highways, due to the number of semi-trucks, I would doubt you'd often run into significant grades, so your hitch may not be under that much stress from the weight of the trailer.
However a boat ramp is different(or at least the ones I've been on), the grades tend to be fairly steep which will put more stress on the hitch than merely climbing hills on a highway. In addition there is possible that there may be a temporary increase in force at the moment that the boat comes out of the water. At this point the weight of the boat is not supported by the water and is fully supported by the trailer. This transition of weight to the trailer, could cause a similar effect to hitting a bump on the highway, causing an increase of force on the hitch due to the lever like behavior of the tounge. This increase in force in an already high stress situation would worry me.
OK that's my impressions and I'm not claiming to be 100% right, my physics is rusty. Consider them conversation starters that the physics guru's can slap me around if I'm wrong
09-01-2004, 12:29 PM
#34
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You'll probably fry the clutch the first time you pull it out of the lake. I did this to a Toyota van - 4cyl, lo torque, hi rpm. You have NO pwer at 500rpm. You will have to slip the clutch the entire length of the ramp with the engine at 5-6k. The only reasons it works for your wife's car is more torque at low rpm's and an automatic trans which allows the necessary slipping inside.
09-01-2004, 12:31 PM
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Go ahead and try it, but make sure take some really good pics in case something breaks and then post them here so I can attach this 'OWNED' right next to the pictures.
09-01-2004, 12:48 PM
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I take everything I said before back. I've been put in my place! I'm sure your right and the the frame/bumper supports should be able to handle the force. If you really want to be sure maybe you should contact Honda and ask them, I'm sure they will tell you its strong enough! Good luck to you and let us know how you make out.
09-01-2004, 01:07 PM
#37
Gernby, how the F--- did you post this here? Too funny. I'm guessing you have the D'Lan hitch if you use the tire tail. That relies on the bumper mounts for strength. When I installed my Hammerly I took a good look at the bumper mounts and felt that they and the bolts in question would have no problem with 1,000 pounds. That said, given the duty you are talking about, you may be ok. We used my brothers 144 90 hp Volvo wagon to tow his race car and trailer to Watkins Glenn, so low torque cars can still pull the big weight. I'd test this on a hill that approximates the degree angle of the boat ramp. That way, if it doesnt work you don't end up inthe drink.
09-01-2004, 01:11 PM
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the S2k doesn't have enough torque to pull the boat out of the water. remember when you are pulling it out of teh water, you are pulling the weight of the trailer, boat, and overcoming the friction and weight of the water on the boat. the rear tires will probably be slightly submerged or atleast wet, and won't grip for crap. I forsee you backing into the water and either your mufflers flodding with water and stalling the engine, or you not having enough power/tire friction and will slide into the water, and having to get someone else to pull you and your boat and trailer out of the water.
you'll probably also fry the hell out of your clutch, or bend the s2ki's frame, since its not made to be pulled on. the s2k's frame is actually bolted to the body, you'll probably rip out those frame bolts and bend the frame as well.
good luck with it tho, i'd like to be there and take pictures when you screw up your s2000.
edit: the more i think about it, if your s2k gets stuck in the water, you can't use the front tow hook to have someone pull you out. its not designed to take the weight of the s2k, boat, and trailer in the water. its barely designed to pull the s2k out of sand on flat,level ground. if your s2k gets stuck, you'll have to call a tow truck.
you'll probably also fry the hell out of your clutch, or bend the s2ki's frame, since its not made to be pulled on. the s2k's frame is actually bolted to the body, you'll probably rip out those frame bolts and bend the frame as well.
good luck with it tho, i'd like to be there and take pictures when you screw up your s2000.
edit: the more i think about it, if your s2k gets stuck in the water, you can't use the front tow hook to have someone pull you out. its not designed to take the weight of the s2k, boat, and trailer in the water. its barely designed to pull the s2k out of sand on flat,level ground. if your s2k gets stuck, you'll have to call a tow truck.
09-01-2004, 02:02 PM
#39
Some of the comments about torque and traction on this thread overlook the fact that today's 4 wheel drive high powered road pig SUV/Trucks are a fairly recent development in the history of the motoring world. For decades folks pulled trailers and launched boats with 2500 pound cars and light trucks with 1 wheel drive (yeah, not even limited slip) and anemic six cylinder engines with less power and torque than the S. If you don't believe me, look it up. The tires were crappy bias plys with so little traction that cornering above 30mph around town was a test of will. They did it and I bet Gernby can too.
Todays motorist is a pampered weenie with no understanding of how little power it takes to accomplish basic tasks. All the modern vehicles available to day have far more power than is needed for the purpose they perform.
Todays motorist is a pampered weenie with no understanding of how little power it takes to accomplish basic tasks. All the modern vehicles available to day have far more power than is needed for the purpose they perform.
09-01-2004, 02:14 PM
#40
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Jeesh. If something fails it would be either my clutch or my bumper mounts. Nothing else could fail. The portion of the frame in front of the rear wheels see almost no load from the trailer (about like 100 lbs in the trunk). It would definitely be hard on the clutch, and traction would be a concern, but I used my dad's 4 cylinder (manual tranny, 100 ft-lbs of torque) Ford Ranger to pull a 21' competition ski boat up a much steeper ramp. Traction sucked, and I had to feather the clutch for ever. Sure it was a truck, but that actually made it worse since the weight distribution is all at the front.
Submerging the mufflers won't stall the engine.
If something does brake, I would MUCH rather it happen on the boat ramp. The boat isn't going to pull me INTO the water. It would only pull me back TO the water. The boat and car would be much safer sitting at the water's edge, than cruising backwards down a hill together.
If the tow hooks are strong enough to pull the car out of sand ... its definitely strong enough to pull it up a 15 degree incline. The boat could be unloaded from the trailer before pulling the car up.
Submerging the mufflers won't stall the engine.
If something does brake, I would MUCH rather it happen on the boat ramp. The boat isn't going to pull me INTO the water. It would only pull me back TO the water. The boat and car would be much safer sitting at the water's edge, than cruising backwards down a hill together.
If the tow hooks are strong enough to pull the car out of sand ... its definitely strong enough to pull it up a 15 degree incline. The boat could be unloaded from the trailer before pulling the car up.