Grazhoppa

With Honda, try to use an OEM filter. If you use an aftermarket filter, make sure that is it tightly screwed. Otherwise, oil will leak right out. This happened to my '94 prelude as I am driving after I changed the oil by myself and smoke was coming out right underneath the vehicle. As for the knocking sound, it is common for Honda engines to knock, especially if you did not observe the break in period. In your case, what's done is done! I suggest you deal directly with the manufacturer. Advise them that you will contact the local paper which often has a consumer watchdog reporter if the warranty is not honored. If all else fails, take Honda to arbitration. I am sure it will cost them more to defend then to repair. Good luck!

usdm1

yeah it got me stumped too ....

what we found out today is .. honda claims , the car was ran without oil or low on oil . thats the bottom line .
Now, how they found that out by not touching the oil or by only taking off the valvecover , stumps me again ... the car was filled before i brought it down so , i know they didnt just pull the dipstick out and find that its low again ... unless it droped the 3 quarts again over the 3 days that they had it ...
what we think is , honda took a portion of our statement and twisted it ... they are saying , we didnt add any oil within the 3 months and has never checked it .
the thing is no one said we didnt check any oils or add .
we said what happend ... now honda called the other dealer for warranty and told them what his diagnosis was . now the other warranty from mckenna wont cover because honda said ... blah blah ... " no oil was added or checked "

on monday we'll know more ...

Hyper-X

As a fellow driver in Hawaii (on Oahu though)... I'd like to add in a penny's worth of comments.

Of course, a surprising amount of people like to blame everybody and everything else due to their own negligence... and there's a good amount of things each driver/owner is responsible for, like checking their own oil. I don't buy the old stories of how women can't check their own oil, they choose not to do it and/or learn, plain and simple. The car's not going to check it's own oil, that's why there's a thing called maintenance that each of us must do in order to keep the car running as it should. Ultimately it boils down to making sure things get done, whether you do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you.

Okay, enough of the yapping and onto the subject. The problems you're experiencing and what you've been told by the dealership(s) doesn't seem to make much sense.

First of all, a professional technician should never diagnose and conclude anything about a problem without taking a look first before speaking. I'm a computer technician myself and I never state to the customer what the problem could be no matter how familiar the symptoms may be. The customer usually doesn't like how I tell them "... sounds familiar but I can't tell you anything without putting your computer on the bench." In automotives, a tech cannot honestly tell you anything worthwhile without having your car in the shop. Verbal diagnosis is as valuable as a handshake guarantee. You might as well consult a physic if all you're going to get is verbal crap. If anything, the technician or service rep should be qualifying you with as many questions as they need to "build a story." Examples are...

1. Does this happen all the time, when did you first notice....
2. Did you bring this up with us before... if so, what was the response?
3. Under what conditions are the problems most noticeable? The list goes on.

I'm disturbed at the oil filter angle that the dealership took to wave off any reason to help you. If the oil filter was improperly chosen/installed, it's not your fault because you didn't perform the work. If the oil filter was defective, again... since you didn't do the work and make the filter yourself, it's not your fault, that's something the manufacturer of the part is liable for. The warranty doesn't disqualify you because you used a non-genuine Honda filter. It just takes the liability away from Honda if the part is bad, since it's not their product. They can still charge you for a genuine Honda part (if you want one) plus labor if the aftermarket part is found to be bad.

The truth is, a good percentage of people abuse their cars (I'm not implying that you are) and in some cases, they are the root cause of their own problems. However...

You stated the tech told you that your problems were due to how you drive. It was also stated that the tech said "no one can duplicate your driving." That's . You can drive with him in the car, and his theory can be tested for any truth. Until then, the tech can't stand behind an assumption like that. To me, that just demonstrates the level of service you're going to get.

In regards to knock related problems... it may be the driver and/or the car is in a situation that has (but not limited to)

1. put in too low of an octane grade fuel
2. driven in too hot a climate, high amount of load to the car
3. lugging the car in too high a gear, not enough rpms
4. other heat related issues, etc.

The knock sensor and ECU can only pull out as much timing as its capable of. If it continues to knock, I'd start by eliminating what isn't the problem. If you're using the correct fuel grade, that can be ruled out. If you're lugging the car, only a test drive by the tech can eliminate that possibility (by ruling you out). If the tech drives it "correctly" and the car continues to knock, it's either the both of you, or none of you. If it's heat related, then I'd start troubleshooting heat related problems according to Honda's troubleshooting procedures.

The smoking problem is something I wouldn't hold against you necessarily. For example, if the car is smoking because oil is leaking and getting burned somewhere, that can be due to a problem, defect or improper installation not involving you. If it was caused by an over-rev situation, that can be attributed to driving. It can go both ways. In either case, the shop needs to provide concrete evidence if they're going to pin anything on you.

Verifying the exterior of the engine using careful visual inspections, followed by a compression check of each of the cylinders is a relatively easy way to track if the problem is internal. A blown head gasket could cause oil burning, valves not seating completely on the seats could cause them to burn and build up carbon which may produce hot-spots and aid in detonation. Checking the valve clearances/guides and such may be in order. Checking the coolant for signs of oil leaking is another thing Honda can do.

These were just a few examples and may/will involve more. A spun bearing could be a problem also, but I'll say this much... Honda will probably check everything else before getting to that point.

Keep a cool head, watch your language and document everything that goes on. Refrain as much as possible from assumptive troubleshooting, and don't tolerate anything less than certainty from the tech if he/she hasn't confirmed for sure so you can hold them liable if it's later found otherwise. If the dealership starts to use lines like...

"... well it's probably" or "it's more than likely due to..." or "... well we think it is", that's only telling you what they aren't completely sure of. I'd then ask...

"since it sounds like you're not 100% sure, can you at least tell me what you are absolutely sure of" and such. If they cannot tell you what the problem is, make them tell you what it isn't. Again, make sure you keep the conversation civil and use tact with your language. Fair is fair, if professionals can only give you answers that are less than 100% for anything, you might as well consult a physic.

As a tech myself, I confront customers person to person and if I'm not sure about something, I let them know (perhaps because I don't have the equipment/skills to be absolutely sure.) On the other hand, I will tell them what I am certain of, to put them at rest. That's what people pay professionals for, answers that contain certainty and aren't associated with "well I think it's...".

usdm1

first off , I do check oils periodicly , its common sence .. I have worked with hondas for approx. 4-5 years ( putting engines in and out , changing timing belts ect .. ) I have a good mechanical background.
sometimes professionals make bad mistakes .. Im not a professional but i have more common sence to check fluids ect ...
I admit .. i do drive the car fast from time to time ( you would say abuse it time to time ) I dont drag it NEVER!!! but hey , what is the 9k redline for anyway ?? honda built this car knowing they had the redline set to 9k and making it a roadster ... hmm what did they think was going to happen ???
this is my 1st s2000 ive owned , i built a 92 si hatch with my b16a2 in 98 and i also have been through about 9-10 hondas , buying and selling .. not bragging or saying im a pro or anything , just trying to say , i have more sence to check oils ...

the guy i work with , his father works as a mechanic at mckenna , he said mckenna just reset the light when i purchased the car and didnt change the oil !!! so now i have to track the old owner of the car and see where was the last place she did her oil change . also i will make mckenna provide me with proof of oil change when they sold me the car . likewise with honda , i will make honda provide me with proof of there conclusion of no or low oil theroy..

this whole thing sounds like honda and mckenna is trying to back there asses up and not get in trouble in anyway ...

tenblade2001

Does Hawaii have a lemon law? Legal Bill, any knowledge of how lemon laws work. Can he say, look this car is a POS, take it back?

tenblade2001

USDM, remember its up to them to prove the car did not have a mechanical failure.

mas

You are right, but that's not what happens in real life. Honda can (and does) deny anything that they can blame on the owner without offering any proof to back their claim.

Let's say, you have a check engine light and the code is pointing to the O2 sensor, if the car is under warranty they will have to replace the sensor cause it's an obvious problem. Now, when there's a blown engine, there could be many reasons and the default for Honda seems to be "owner abuse". They start from blaming you for not taking care of the car, not checking oil, not doing service on time, basically anything they can blame you for. This puts the ball in the owner's court and this is why it is very important to keep records for all the oil changes and the oil you buy to top off the car when it burns oil.

If you want to play it real safe, I suggest you buy a quart of oil every 1000 miles (even if you don't need it) and keep the receipt for the record. I know this is extreme but what can you do about it, you're dealing with HONDA! You can get a quart of regular oil for a couple $s so it's not too expensive. With all the stories of blown motors (some from very responsible owners), this does not sound like a bad investment.

BTW, honda did issue something warning owners that the car can consume up to a quart every 1000 miles - basically to cover their asses.

Good luck!

Prolene

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mas

jankemi

Remids me of 10-15 years ago when my kid brother was a student engineer in the metalurgy department of a US engine manufacturer. His job was to tear down engines that came back from dealers and determine if they were covered warranty or not. If the problem was obviously caused by a defect from the factory, they would fix or replace the engine. Otherwise:

'Customer neglect, lack of lubrication.'

and no warranty.

--Mike

airsport

Welcome to the club