Honda Denies Warranty Coverage...
11-25-2002, 03:44 AM
#11
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I happen to work for some time and some years ago worked as a service manager. I will tell you that anybody who is so ignorant that they think that, should downgrade to a civic. Honda is very concerned about cust. satisfaction (CSI) and owner loyalty!
Downgrade to a civic eh? Did it ever occur to you that I might have first experienced problems with Honda's customer service with a vehicle other than the s2000, that was driven purely as a commuter. I assure you I need no lectures from you on honda's "customer service" as I have experienced it first hand too many times... enough that I might show my appreciation by spending my money elsewhere.
Of course i'm not the only one... try saying this to all of the accord owners who basically got screwed and bs'd and told to suck it up when their transmissions failed and were forced to foot the bill until years later (under NHTSA investigation)and only then do they finally admit that there was indeed an engineering flaw.
I am also a customer who refuses to leave their car at the dealership so ther is NO misunderstanding between me and the service manager. I am usually hunkered over the car with the mechanic (who is 99 percent of the time extrememly annoyed) just so that there is no misunderstanding, yet these problems still occur, and I get handed the same lame BS excuses (which i have drawn a diagram for the service mangaer showing how x dealership excuse is impossible because y vehicle does not display a,b,c symptoms.
The funniest part is that you think it is the customer's responsibility to accurately convey the problem to the service manager. If the service manager doesn't understand what the customer is saying... it is his responsibility to further question and investigate what is wrong with the car until he understands. This is kind of like the doctors office... it is the responsibility of the doctor/service manager to investigate and diagnose the problem regardless of how little information the patient/customer brings to you. Patients/customers do not come in to a doctors office/service center with a plaquard on their neck spelling out their ailment/mechanical problems
If the problem is infact that the dealership/service manager does not have the knowledge to accurately diagnose and explain engine failures (like knowing an overrev will not cause a sparkplug to disentigrate... just as an example) that dealership does not possess the knowledge to work on vehicles and are constantly screwing over customers who understand even less than the dealership because they buy the crappy excuse they are handed. Hell these days you have to know your car better than your mechanic half the time just so that whatever problem can be taken care of
Nowhere in your rebuttal do you address what we are truely getting at.... Honda dealerships in general do not take the time or have the knowledge to work on some vehicles... Nowhere do you explain why it is ok for dealerships to give bs scenerios on why the car failed. I'm sure without the cooperation of board members problems like #4 cylinder failures and improper spark plug torque would have long been swept under the carpet as "operator" induced errors.
Dealerships are concerned with bottom line..... it makes monetary sense. Unfortunately the customer must apparently possess as much or more knowledge about his/her vehicle in order to have it serviced properly and not be screwed over.
11-25-2002, 04:37 AM
#12
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Divine Design, if you follow the "Short Block Replacement Thread" link in my sig, you'll see that Honda has replaced quite a few engines, usually paying in full, like happened to you.
Sometimes specific dealerships or District Service Managers start with the assumption that "driver error" caused the problem because this is a "driver's car." I think that some American Honda Motors people take the attitude, no matter how self-defeating, that anyone who buys such a wonderful, powerful toy must not be responsible. However, AHM writes the warranty so they have to live with the warranty.
Make these assumptions. You will get your car repaired and you will, if necessary, rent a replacement during the period yours is out of service. America Honda Motors or the dealership that replaced the first engine will pay for the repair and rental. AHM should pay if it is a product defect failure. The first dealership should pay if their negligence in installing the replacement engine led to the failure. You have good evidence that that is true.
Discuss this matter with the dealership's owner. Recruit him to go to bat for you with AHM. Be ready to walk out, have your vehicle flat-bedded to another dealer to be repaired and be ready to sue the dealer and AHM if it seems they won't take their share of the responsibility.
If for some reason that does not show up in these posts, you are responsible, then seek mediation. It doesn't sound to me you are not responsible because you did not misuse the car or ignore required maintenace.
This will probably be an $10,000 or so repair. Be ready to get an attorney involved early. Before you go to the dealership's owner, have in your pocket the name of an attorney who would take your case and the phone number of the local Better Business Bureau. AHM seem to be very concerned about bad Better Business Bureau reports. Also, you might line up an automotive engineer or expert who would inspect your engine, and, if it is true, be willing to testify that your overrevving could not shatter the spark plug. I don't think it could without first destroying the associted valves.
Always be polite. Always assume your car will be repaired and it will be covered by warranty or the first dealership's liability for defective work. Treat each AHM and dealership employee with respect. Assume that they simply haven't had a chance to get up to speed to realize that you did nothing wrong.
Be patient. Oh yes. Once you rent a car and indicate that they will be responsible for that cost too, it puts pressure on them not to waste time.
Having said all this, in my experience, my dealer may not be perfect, but they are definitely committed to customer satisfaction and long term buyer relations. AHM has replaced engines that have died with no oil in the crankcase. They have replaced differentials that have been chewed up by drag racing. In many cases they have gone beyond what they would be legally required to do.
You bought a first class roadster from a first class manufacturer but you've had really bad experience so far. I'm ready to bet you'll come out whole and satisfied you were treated fairly.
Keep us all posted. We are on your side and we'll help you get just treatment.
Sometimes specific dealerships or District Service Managers start with the assumption that "driver error" caused the problem because this is a "driver's car." I think that some American Honda Motors people take the attitude, no matter how self-defeating, that anyone who buys such a wonderful, powerful toy must not be responsible. However, AHM writes the warranty so they have to live with the warranty.
Make these assumptions. You will get your car repaired and you will, if necessary, rent a replacement during the period yours is out of service. America Honda Motors or the dealership that replaced the first engine will pay for the repair and rental. AHM should pay if it is a product defect failure. The first dealership should pay if their negligence in installing the replacement engine led to the failure. You have good evidence that that is true.
Discuss this matter with the dealership's owner. Recruit him to go to bat for you with AHM. Be ready to walk out, have your vehicle flat-bedded to another dealer to be repaired and be ready to sue the dealer and AHM if it seems they won't take their share of the responsibility.
If for some reason that does not show up in these posts, you are responsible, then seek mediation. It doesn't sound to me you are not responsible because you did not misuse the car or ignore required maintenace.
This will probably be an $10,000 or so repair. Be ready to get an attorney involved early. Before you go to the dealership's owner, have in your pocket the name of an attorney who would take your case and the phone number of the local Better Business Bureau. AHM seem to be very concerned about bad Better Business Bureau reports. Also, you might line up an automotive engineer or expert who would inspect your engine, and, if it is true, be willing to testify that your overrevving could not shatter the spark plug. I don't think it could without first destroying the associted valves.
Always be polite. Always assume your car will be repaired and it will be covered by warranty or the first dealership's liability for defective work. Treat each AHM and dealership employee with respect. Assume that they simply haven't had a chance to get up to speed to realize that you did nothing wrong.
Be patient. Oh yes. Once you rent a car and indicate that they will be responsible for that cost too, it puts pressure on them not to waste time.
Having said all this, in my experience, my dealer may not be perfect, but they are definitely committed to customer satisfaction and long term buyer relations. AHM has replaced engines that have died with no oil in the crankcase. They have replaced differentials that have been chewed up by drag racing. In many cases they have gone beyond what they would be legally required to do.
You bought a first class roadster from a first class manufacturer but you've had really bad experience so far. I'm ready to bet you'll come out whole and satisfied you were treated fairly.
Keep us all posted. We are on your side and we'll help you get just treatment.
11-25-2002, 10:46 AM
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Update:
Service Manager gave the green light to disassemble the block. Met with the current mechanic working on the car, and he didn't say much other than the 'over-rev' reasoning that makes less and less sense the more I research. I did see the spark plug however. It was indeed burned out and the center of the electrode was missing (melted?). The mech said that the insulator was cracked, but I saw no such thing on visual inspection. It was too early to tell if there was damage done to the valves and they hadn't scoped the cylinder to see if there was any scaring or the cylinder wall. Mech went on to indicate that under 'normal' conditions, if contact is made with the spark plug, it would just back out. The word disintegrated was not an accurate depiction of the spark plug condition IMHO. It had not rattled around in the compustion chamber or any such thing. I would expect something that got smacked with a piston to be in much worse shape. Interested in finding out the valve story. Oil level was full, the rest of the engine looked pristine. Sorry, no pics.
Service Manager gave the green light to disassemble the block. Met with the current mechanic working on the car, and he didn't say much other than the 'over-rev' reasoning that makes less and less sense the more I research. I did see the spark plug however. It was indeed burned out and the center of the electrode was missing (melted?). The mech said that the insulator was cracked, but I saw no such thing on visual inspection. It was too early to tell if there was damage done to the valves and they hadn't scoped the cylinder to see if there was any scaring or the cylinder wall. Mech went on to indicate that under 'normal' conditions, if contact is made with the spark plug, it would just back out. The word disintegrated was not an accurate depiction of the spark plug condition IMHO. It had not rattled around in the compustion chamber or any such thing. I would expect something that got smacked with a piston to be in much worse shape. Interested in finding out the valve story. Oil level was full, the rest of the engine looked pristine. Sorry, no pics.
11-25-2002, 11:06 AM
#14
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Barry continues to be the voice of reason.
DevineDesign - best of luck with this. I'll reiterate Barry's recomendation by saying patience is a virtue, especially where American Honda is concerned. Keep us posted.
DevineDesign - best of luck with this. I'll reiterate Barry's recomendation by saying patience is a virtue, especially where American Honda is concerned. Keep us posted.
11-26-2002, 04:16 PM
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Update:
Service Manager deferred to AHC. Probably won't have word back till Monday. Block was completely removed and disassembled. Pieces of the spark plug (center cap and body underneath insulater) pinged around the cylinder wall enough to make a real mess. Not sure if AHC, will recommend honing, boring, or full replacement (or if the first two are even options). I'm concerned now about unreliability coming up on my warranty expiration. I can't really afford a 10,000 dollar a year service no matter how much I love the car.
Service Manager deferred to AHC. Probably won't have word back till Monday. Block was completely removed and disassembled. Pieces of the spark plug (center cap and body underneath insulater) pinged around the cylinder wall enough to make a real mess. Not sure if AHC, will recommend honing, boring, or full replacement (or if the first two are even options). I'm concerned now about unreliability coming up on my warranty expiration. I can't really afford a 10,000 dollar a year service no matter how much I love the car.
12-02-2002, 08:31 AM
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Slick Rick you are funny you use to work as a service mananger??? Past tense if you noticed on this board alot of dealerships are playing this act of its the consumers fault!! Acura steps up and tries to help you fix your car and make you happy and custumer satysfaction is very high!!!! Unlike honda they think you are just buying another civic and treat you like a kid and not a professional and respect...For a car that redlines at 8900 rpm and is prasied in all the magazines as a performance car and also great sports car its built to be driven... Warrenties Help to fix defects and fix problems if the dealer doesnt honor the Warrenty then why does Honda have one....36000 3yr Basic I would just call my lawyer and Report to Consumer affairs and the Better Buisness Burea and report this to them and also right letters to high ups in Honda Corp...... Thats the way buisness should be done if all else fails especially dealing nicely with the dealer Time to play hardball no more mister nice guy
12-02-2002, 12:58 PM
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Pursuing legal under the California Tanner Consumer Protection Act (AKA lemon law). Sent 4 page letter to Consumer Affairs and the zone office. Dealership has not contacted me about whether or not a fix would be covered under warranty. I think they're waiting for an engineer from Honda to come onsite. My car was out over 30 days getting the second (and third) engine in. That should be more than enough to make a case. I bought the car privately with 400 miles on the odo and am hoping that will not put a wrench in the process. Clearly it's not in my interest to go after the former owner because it is a warranty problem, not the former owner's lack of disclosure. To get a '00 car three years ago meant traveling to SoCal (like I did) or paying 8-10k over sticker here.