HELP! Need advice from people with engine failures or experienced mechanics.
11-13-2002, 04:54 PM
#51
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We're moving away from the thread main topic, but I believe that some assertions here fly in the face of statistical science. You cannot real derive reliability from a few reported failures in a forum. It's just not significant, too much noise in the data. I won't even care to go over it. You figure it out.
I wouldn't however be surprised to see an S2000 engine failure higher than average (defining average as failures per engine manufactured). There are a couple of factors that may suggest this.
First, the specs do not really shout "bulletproof". Long stroke, high rpm, short gearing, high specific power, it all adds up. I, for one, was not expecting diesel mercedes benz reliability. That does not mean we should not expect a car that lasts over 100,000kms, but temper your expectations.
This factor is compounded by the one I consider most significant. This car is driven on average much harder than most (if possibly not all) other street cars. Take a -insert your favorite brand model here- and drive it like a granny. And see it racking up mile after mile. Take the same car and beat the hell out of it. Don't be surprised if something breaks sooner rather than later. Or in other words, when was the last time you drove your auto transmission ford taurus consistently to the redline negotiating those canyon bends?
I believe some brands over-engineer their cars to try make it thru thick and thin. The Porsche 911 is a classic example (even so they had their fair share of problems). I doubt this has been the case for the S2000. I'm not saying the car is crap ( I own one, and I love it), but somehow the cost contention required to squeeze it at the level that it did, must surely imply some compromises. Not enough testing is probably one.
Remember, the price of a car reflects not only the metal, plastic, leather, parked in your garage, but a lot of things that have gone before the car was brought into the show room. There are no free lunches.
BTW, isn't there published, reliable data on car reliability? How does the s2000 fare? I vaguely recall that it was very good at same stage. Has it gone down?
I wouldn't however be surprised to see an S2000 engine failure higher than average (defining average as failures per engine manufactured). There are a couple of factors that may suggest this.
First, the specs do not really shout "bulletproof". Long stroke, high rpm, short gearing, high specific power, it all adds up. I, for one, was not expecting diesel mercedes benz reliability. That does not mean we should not expect a car that lasts over 100,000kms, but temper your expectations.
This factor is compounded by the one I consider most significant. This car is driven on average much harder than most (if possibly not all) other street cars. Take a -insert your favorite brand model here- and drive it like a granny. And see it racking up mile after mile. Take the same car and beat the hell out of it. Don't be surprised if something breaks sooner rather than later. Or in other words, when was the last time you drove your auto transmission ford taurus consistently to the redline negotiating those canyon bends?
I believe some brands over-engineer their cars to try make it thru thick and thin. The Porsche 911 is a classic example (even so they had their fair share of problems). I doubt this has been the case for the S2000. I'm not saying the car is crap ( I own one, and I love it), but somehow the cost contention required to squeeze it at the level that it did, must surely imply some compromises. Not enough testing is probably one.
Remember, the price of a car reflects not only the metal, plastic, leather, parked in your garage, but a lot of things that have gone before the car was brought into the show room. There are no free lunches.
BTW, isn't there published, reliable data on car reliability? How does the s2000 fare? I vaguely recall that it was very good at same stage. Has it gone down?
11-13-2002, 06:28 PM
#52
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I agree with Luis, we know 25 of 30,000+ cars?
I think the real problem is how Honda of America handles these cases.
I didnt like the cold shoulder I got, not even a 'Sorry but we tried' and at the end they did as little as possible.
They guy who sold me my car? heh, he asks me if I want to trade for a newer one . . . He didnt like my conditions of straight trade.
I think the real problem is how Honda of America handles these cases.
I didnt like the cold shoulder I got, not even a 'Sorry but we tried' and at the end they did as little as possible.
They guy who sold me my car? heh, he asks me if I want to trade for a newer one . . . He didnt like my conditions of straight trade.
01-20-2003, 05:51 PM
#53
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add me to the list . i have a 3 month old '02 with 4 k miles and I HAVE HAD TO RETAIN ATTORNEY because Honda doesnt want to stand behind this product. i have 1 bent valve and the processor shows no over rev code. not only has Honda refused the warranty , but they wont return my calls . i am being treated like i own a Daewoo. any stories or advise would be appricaited. meanwhile the car sits at the dealer for 2 months and i make the payments
01-20-2003, 06:29 PM
#54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by su701
[B]add me to the list . i have a 3 month old '02 with 4 k miles and I HAVE HAD TO RETAIN ATTORNEY because Honda doesnt want to stand behind this product. i have 1 bent valve and the processor shows no over rev code. not only has Honda refused the warranty
[B]add me to the list . i have a 3 month old '02 with 4 k miles and I HAVE HAD TO RETAIN ATTORNEY because Honda doesnt want to stand behind this product. i have 1 bent valve and the processor shows no over rev code. not only has Honda refused the warranty
01-20-2003, 07:26 PM
#57
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by su701
[B]add me to the list . i have a 3 month old '02 with 4 k miles and I HAVE HAD TO RETAIN ATTORNEY because Honda doesnt want to stand behind this product. i have 1 bent valve and the processor shows no over rev code. not only has Honda refused the warranty
[B]add me to the list . i have a 3 month old '02 with 4 k miles and I HAVE HAD TO RETAIN ATTORNEY because Honda doesnt want to stand behind this product. i have 1 bent valve and the processor shows no over rev code. not only has Honda refused the warranty
01-21-2003, 03:26 AM
#58
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Originally posted by Luis
... I believe that some assertions here fly in the face of statistical science. You cannot real derive reliability from a few reported failures in a forum. It's just not significant, too much noise in the data. ...
... I believe that some assertions here fly in the face of statistical science. You cannot real derive reliability from a few reported failures in a forum. It's just not significant, too much noise in the data. ...
[B]I agree with Luis, we know 25 of 30,000+ cars?
01-21-2003, 05:05 AM
#59
Luis,
Honda's President gave a SAE presentation shortly after the S2000 began production. At that time he said that small nitch car's can be profitable and he pointed out the S2000 line was turning a profit after just 6 months! Secondly, as for testing, the S2000 had an exceptionally long test period. . . over 3 years . . . way beyond Honda's norm.
Honda's President gave a SAE presentation shortly after the S2000 began production. At that time he said that small nitch car's can be profitable and he pointed out the S2000 line was turning a profit after just 6 months! Secondly, as for testing, the S2000 had an exceptionally long test period. . . over 3 years . . . way beyond Honda's norm.
01-21-2003, 05:23 AM
#60
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Luis, I'm sure part of Honda's decision to produce an NSX or an S2000 come from the hope that these "flagship products" will help sales of Accords and Civics as well. Therefore, some of the "profitability" of the Accord or Civic line should be assigned to the S2000.
In addition, the company's reputation is built on the visibility of its quality. Here's another example. Sometimes, as a doctor, I choose to waive my own fee for a patient. This may be due to a patient's current financial difficulty, a problem needing frequent visits or even my feeling I could have done better earlier. No matter. Once I choose to not charge for a service, I make the conscious decision to provide the service with the highest quality. I sometimes tell the patient or the parent, "Even though I am not charging you for today's service, I don't want you to think the service isn't important or I don't want you to think it wasn't important for you to see me. It was."
In other words, I assume my reputation as a physician is based on the overall quality of my work, not just the quality of service in relation to the price.
Honda has an excellent reputation. How they handle S2000 claims is important to them, even if the car was underpriced by $10,000 from the beginning. I think they know this and will demonstrate this.
That doesn't mean that an owner can miss a shift or dump a clutch or run an engine with no oil or drive over a cliff and expect Honda to take the financial responsibility for something that was not Honda's responsibility. It does mean that if a product breaks due to design or manufacturing defect and the product was used as specified, then Honda's warranty should cover the cost of the problem.
In addition, the company's reputation is built on the visibility of its quality. Here's another example. Sometimes, as a doctor, I choose to waive my own fee for a patient. This may be due to a patient's current financial difficulty, a problem needing frequent visits or even my feeling I could have done better earlier. No matter. Once I choose to not charge for a service, I make the conscious decision to provide the service with the highest quality. I sometimes tell the patient or the parent, "Even though I am not charging you for today's service, I don't want you to think the service isn't important or I don't want you to think it wasn't important for you to see me. It was."
In other words, I assume my reputation as a physician is based on the overall quality of my work, not just the quality of service in relation to the price.
Honda has an excellent reputation. How they handle S2000 claims is important to them, even if the car was underpriced by $10,000 from the beginning. I think they know this and will demonstrate this.
That doesn't mean that an owner can miss a shift or dump a clutch or run an engine with no oil or drive over a cliff and expect Honda to take the financial responsibility for something that was not Honda's responsibility. It does mean that if a product breaks due to design or manufacturing defect and the product was used as specified, then Honda's warranty should cover the cost of the problem.