Help - Mil On!!!
07-13-2002, 09:56 PM
#21
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Just hold the trip button down, put the key in the ignition, turn the key all the way, wait till the light stops flashing, let go of the trip button. If something's really wrong, the light will reappear.
07-13-2002, 10:40 PM
#22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kidwhiz
[B]Just hold the trip button down, put the key in the ignition, turn the key all the way, wait till the light stops flashing, let go of the trip button.
[B]Just hold the trip button down, put the key in the ignition, turn the key all the way, wait till the light stops flashing, let go of the trip button.
07-14-2002, 01:21 AM
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in order to make things perfectly clear, I will cover a series of facts that should end this argument about OBD-II and the MIL.
Fact 1) CEL stands for Check Engine Light. MIL stands for Malfunction Indicator Lamp. MIL is the new term for CEL. On a modern car, the CEL lamp is the MIL lamp. The reason behind the name change is that a MIL can light up for issues unrelated to engine malfunction. Modern car manuals (including service manuals) will use MIL to refer to this dash indicator.
Fact 2) OBD-II, the successor to OBD-I, is a computer system that monitors a car's operation and logs data related to vehicle function. OBD2's primary purpose is to monitor emissions, but it also covers other areas of vehicle operation. When OBD2 detects a problem, it stores a code, known as a DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code), and then illuminates the MIL. All vehicles produced in the 1996 model year or newer have an OBD2 compliant computer.
Fact 3) In all OBD2 vehicles produced by Honda, and most of Honda's OBD1 vehicles, there is a method by which you can short a signal line from the DLC (Data Link Connector) to ground. The MIL will blink a certain number of times, which corresponds to the DTC code. You can then look up this code in the Helm's manual. The name of this signal line escapes me at the moment (I don't have access to a Helm's manual right now.. I'll see if I can get my hands on the S2000 one tomorrow). This method of code retrieval is specific to Hondas, and is not a part of the OBD1 or OBD2 specification. On most Civic and Prelude models of the last decade (among others), Honda ran this signal wire, along with a ground wire, to a separate connector, which made it easy to short and retrieve codes. On the S2000, Honda has declined to run it to a separate connector, but the signal line still exists. It is on one pin of the DLC, and it is very easy to use a paper clip to short that signal to ground. Again, when I can get access to the S2000 Helm's manual, I will find the name and location of the appropriate signal wire and write up all of the details.
I can assure you that you can retrieve the DTC codes from the OBD2 unit without a Honda PGM tester or an OBD2 cable. I have done it at least 20 times on my OBD2 Prelude (model year 2000), and I have done it once on an S2000. I have seen, with my own eyes, the MIL lamp blinking and we looked up the code. It turned out to be an issue with vacuum hoses on a CAI install. Feel free to PM Schatten, infinitebass, or dtms if you don't believe me -- they were all present at the time. Anyone who attempted to "wage a war" over the DTC code retrieval issue simply wasn't armed with enough information.
Hopefully this clears things up for everyone.. stopping the spread of misinformation is a good thing.
Matt (yikes, what a looooong post)
Fact 1) CEL stands for Check Engine Light. MIL stands for Malfunction Indicator Lamp. MIL is the new term for CEL. On a modern car, the CEL lamp is the MIL lamp. The reason behind the name change is that a MIL can light up for issues unrelated to engine malfunction. Modern car manuals (including service manuals) will use MIL to refer to this dash indicator.
Fact 2) OBD-II, the successor to OBD-I, is a computer system that monitors a car's operation and logs data related to vehicle function. OBD2's primary purpose is to monitor emissions, but it also covers other areas of vehicle operation. When OBD2 detects a problem, it stores a code, known as a DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code), and then illuminates the MIL. All vehicles produced in the 1996 model year or newer have an OBD2 compliant computer.
Fact 3) In all OBD2 vehicles produced by Honda, and most of Honda's OBD1 vehicles, there is a method by which you can short a signal line from the DLC (Data Link Connector) to ground. The MIL will blink a certain number of times, which corresponds to the DTC code. You can then look up this code in the Helm's manual. The name of this signal line escapes me at the moment (I don't have access to a Helm's manual right now.. I'll see if I can get my hands on the S2000 one tomorrow). This method of code retrieval is specific to Hondas, and is not a part of the OBD1 or OBD2 specification. On most Civic and Prelude models of the last decade (among others), Honda ran this signal wire, along with a ground wire, to a separate connector, which made it easy to short and retrieve codes. On the S2000, Honda has declined to run it to a separate connector, but the signal line still exists. It is on one pin of the DLC, and it is very easy to use a paper clip to short that signal to ground. Again, when I can get access to the S2000 Helm's manual, I will find the name and location of the appropriate signal wire and write up all of the details.
I can assure you that you can retrieve the DTC codes from the OBD2 unit without a Honda PGM tester or an OBD2 cable. I have done it at least 20 times on my OBD2 Prelude (model year 2000), and I have done it once on an S2000. I have seen, with my own eyes, the MIL lamp blinking and we looked up the code. It turned out to be an issue with vacuum hoses on a CAI install. Feel free to PM Schatten, infinitebass, or dtms if you don't believe me -- they were all present at the time. Anyone who attempted to "wage a war" over the DTC code retrieval issue simply wasn't armed with enough information.
Hopefully this clears things up for everyone.. stopping the spread of misinformation is a good thing.
Matt (yikes, what a looooong post)
07-14-2002, 08:44 AM
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Sorry, I was confused between the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp/CEL) and the reminder lamp (Maintenance Required Indicator/MRI).
The helms manual says that "DTCs will be indicated by the blinking of the MIL when the SCS serivice signal line is jumped with the Honda PGM tester." It goes on to show the tester, which looks like one of the larger hand held FLUKE multimeters in shape, connected to the DLC.
DLC is data link connector
SCS is service check signal
Either the PGM tester or a scan tool can be used to read not only the DTCs, but also the freeze frame data, current data, and 'other' ECM data.
I'm not sure which line to short, but that separate connector you are looking for is the DLC. The DLC is located on the top left side of the passenger side footwell under the dash for 2000-2001 and on the right side of the driver's footwell under the dash on 2002. (There is also one under the middle of the dash in what seems to be a place behind the radio??)
The DLC diagram is:
| 1 | / | / | / | / | 6 | / | 8 |
| / | / | / | 12 | 13 | / | 15 | / |
with the bottom line showing the wider portion of the connector. The manual only shows the testers being used, so again, I'm not sure which to short. Toyota uses a similar port and the older model manuals say to short a circuit to body ground to see the DTC flashes. The circuit diagram for the DLC shows 1 connected to the SCS, 6 to DIAG-H, 8 to +B, 12 and 13 to body ground. I assume you want to connect 1 to 12 or 13, but I've never tried it myself.
If you're daring and find that 1 is the right circuit to short to body ground, then here's how you read the codes:
a short blink = 1
a longer sustained blink = 10
two long blinks followed by three short blinks is 23, for example. Each blink is separated by a short pause, a long pause separates the code. There are something like 100 DTCs, so if you find one, post it and I'll look it up.
The helms manual says that "DTCs will be indicated by the blinking of the MIL when the SCS serivice signal line is jumped with the Honda PGM tester." It goes on to show the tester, which looks like one of the larger hand held FLUKE multimeters in shape, connected to the DLC.
DLC is data link connector
SCS is service check signal
Either the PGM tester or a scan tool can be used to read not only the DTCs, but also the freeze frame data, current data, and 'other' ECM data.
I'm not sure which line to short, but that separate connector you are looking for is the DLC. The DLC is located on the top left side of the passenger side footwell under the dash for 2000-2001 and on the right side of the driver's footwell under the dash on 2002. (There is also one under the middle of the dash in what seems to be a place behind the radio??)
The DLC diagram is:
| 1 | / | / | / | / | 6 | / | 8 |
| / | / | / | 12 | 13 | / | 15 | / |
with the bottom line showing the wider portion of the connector. The manual only shows the testers being used, so again, I'm not sure which to short. Toyota uses a similar port and the older model manuals say to short a circuit to body ground to see the DTC flashes. The circuit diagram for the DLC shows 1 connected to the SCS, 6 to DIAG-H, 8 to +B, 12 and 13 to body ground. I assume you want to connect 1 to 12 or 13, but I've never tried it myself.
If you're daring and find that 1 is the right circuit to short to body ground, then here's how you read the codes:
a short blink = 1
a longer sustained blink = 10
two long blinks followed by three short blinks is 23, for example. Each blink is separated by a short pause, a long pause separates the code. There are something like 100 DTCs, so if you find one, post it and I'll look it up.
07-14-2002, 10:26 AM
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ah, YES, thank you kidwhiz. This is the information I was missing. The signal wire for code retrieval is the SCS (Service Check Signal). This wire is on pin 1 of the DLC, which, as kidwhiz pointed out, is located under the passenger footwell on the top right side for 2000-2001 vehicles, and on the right side of the driver's side footwell for model year 2002. Pin 1 is at the top of the shorter side of the connector. The SCS signal wire is brown, so that might help you distinguish it from the other signal wires.
The procedure to retrieve the codes:
1. Make sure the car is off.
2. Use a wire or paperclip to short the SCS wire (pin 1) to pin 12 or pin 13, which are connected to body ground. Again, the SCS signal wire is brown, and all ground wires will be black.
3. Put the key in the ignition and turn it all the way on, but do NOT press the Start button.
4. The dash lights (including the MIL) will briefly come on, and then disappear. The MIL will then blink. It will blink a series of long pulses, which represent the first digit (tens digit) of the DTC. When finished with the long pulses, it will blink a series of short pulses, which represent the second digit (ones digit) of the DTC. For example:
long - long - long - short - short - short - short - short = DTC 35
5. The MIL lamp will continue to blink the code repeatedly until you turn the car off again. Pull the key from the ignition and disconnect your jumper wire.
Once you have the code, you can ask anyone from S2ki that has a Helm's manual, and they will be able to give you the meaning of the code. I think I'm going to borrow a Helm's manual from Schatten and write up a FAQ for this along with the table of DTC codes.
Matt
The procedure to retrieve the codes:
1. Make sure the car is off.
2. Use a wire or paperclip to short the SCS wire (pin 1) to pin 12 or pin 13, which are connected to body ground. Again, the SCS signal wire is brown, and all ground wires will be black.
3. Put the key in the ignition and turn it all the way on, but do NOT press the Start button.
4. The dash lights (including the MIL) will briefly come on, and then disappear. The MIL will then blink. It will blink a series of long pulses, which represent the first digit (tens digit) of the DTC. When finished with the long pulses, it will blink a series of short pulses, which represent the second digit (ones digit) of the DTC. For example:
long - long - long - short - short - short - short - short = DTC 35
5. The MIL lamp will continue to blink the code repeatedly until you turn the car off again. Pull the key from the ignition and disconnect your jumper wire.
Once you have the code, you can ask anyone from S2ki that has a Helm's manual, and they will be able to give you the meaning of the code. I think I'm going to borrow a Helm's manual from Schatten and write up a FAQ for this along with the table of DTC codes.
Matt
07-14-2002, 12:17 PM
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Marco, not to scare the shit out of you or anything...
I just ready the first paragraph of TSB 02-042
"Background: Faulty spark plug can cause spark plugs to loosen. A loose spark plug can cause the engine to misfire and the MIL to come on"
You might want to check to see if a plug has come loose on you.
I just ready the first paragraph of TSB 02-042
"Background: Faulty spark plug can cause spark plugs to loosen. A loose spark plug can cause the engine to misfire and the MIL to come on"
You might want to check to see if a plug has come loose on you.
07-14-2002, 05:30 PM
#28
OBD2 scanner 150 bucks to 175 for a nice one size of big cel phone nice lighted two line read outthat gives the codes and descriptions.freeze codes reset mil...erase codes......30 to 40 bucks....just the code..small looks like a the end of a computer cable...Well worth every penny. i perfer the first one.
together with the helms manual...all you need for some shade tree fun. own your car...don't let it own you. Just got my scanner and helms together total cost 240 dollars......the best 240 you will spend.....the peace of mind is amazing!
together with the helms manual...all you need for some shade tree fun. own your car...don't let it own you. Just got my scanner and helms together total cost 240 dollars......the best 240 you will spend.....the peace of mind is amazing!
07-14-2002, 06:23 PM
#29
Originally posted by ItalianBucwheat
OBD2 scanner 150 bucks to 175 for a nice one size of big cel phone nice lighted two line read outthat gives the codes and descriptions.freeze codes reset mil...erase codes......30 to 40 bucks....just the code..small looks like a the end of a computer cable...Well worth every penny. i perfer the first one.
together with the helms manual...all you need for some shade tree fun. own your car...don't let it own you. Just got my scanner and helms together total cost 240 dollars......the best 240 you will spend.....the peace of mind is amazing!
OBD2 scanner 150 bucks to 175 for a nice one size of big cel phone nice lighted two line read outthat gives the codes and descriptions.freeze codes reset mil...erase codes......30 to 40 bucks....just the code..small looks like a the end of a computer cable...Well worth every penny. i perfer the first one.
together with the helms manual...all you need for some shade tree fun. own your car...don't let it own you. Just got my scanner and helms together total cost 240 dollars......the best 240 you will spend.....the peace of mind is amazing!
07-14-2002, 06:27 PM
#30
You guys are super! If my company had a users' group this educated... Ah.... It's nice to dream! 
This thread has really helped me understand the evolution of the electronics. It's true, my '88 'lude was probably OBD-I and I had no right to slam Honda for making it more difficult to extract the DTCs from the S2000 than from that older car. As an engineer, I tend to express my frustration rapidly when I don't like something
One comment about the "MIL"... After my research in the manual the other night, it seems that "check engine" really would be perfectly appropriate here. Honda has a bunch of other warning lights for most of the other systems. The MIL really does apply to engine sensors in the S2000.
Anyway, I think Bucwheat (
) is right that picking up an OBD-II scanner (or Honda PGM) would really be a good investment. Would any of you offer any comparison / plus-minuses for buying the Honda gizmo over something standard?
Also, can you guys tell me what the "helms manual" is? I have the Honda service ("shop") manual.
This thread has really helped me understand the evolution of the electronics. It's true, my '88 'lude was probably OBD-I and I had no right to slam Honda for making it more difficult to extract the DTCs from the S2000 than from that older car. As an engineer, I tend to express my frustration rapidly when I don't like something
One comment about the "MIL"... After my research in the manual the other night, it seems that "check engine" really would be perfectly appropriate here. Honda has a bunch of other warning lights for most of the other systems. The MIL really does apply to engine sensors in the S2000.
Anyway, I think Bucwheat (
) is right that picking up an OBD-II scanner (or Honda PGM) would really be a good investment. Would any of you offer any comparison / plus-minuses for buying the Honda gizmo over something standard?Also, can you guys tell me what the "helms manual" is? I have the Honda service ("shop") manual.