FYI - Failed Denso Irridium Spark Plugs
10-06-2005, 07:43 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by BENJMNS,Oct 6 2005, 08:18 AM
how's it cheap if you're buying ~30 $2 copper plugs over ~100K miles v. 1 platinum plug at $10? it's WAy more pricey. and on top of that, add in the additional time spent. it's WAY WAY more pricey .
10-06-2005, 08:30 AM
#43
Originally Posted by BENJMNS,Oct 6 2005, 07:18 AM
not ready to "settle" for the copper idea until someone with some info/credibility can say... "there is no platinum/iridium that's safe for FI S2000s"
u feel me?
u feel me?
Copper may go more than 10K miles with the high voltage ignition we have, just have to monitor in you situation to see.
10-06-2005, 10:02 AM
#44
You guys are killing me. Which one of you is a spark plug engineer? The "dyno guy" at the track? I think not. Why don't you talk to a real expert and quit guessing as to what's going on? (that expert would not be me)
After having a Bosche plug fail in my FI S2000 (my own stupid fault and cost me $2k - proof that I'm not an expert!) I talked to NGK. Yes, actually spoke on the phone with somebody that makes spark plugs for a living and probably knows more than "dyno guy". I asked about the "you shouldn't run anything but copper plugs in an FI car" tale that is frequently spouted. His response - "hogwash". First, they're all "copper", even the platinums and iridums. The part that is copper is inside the plug. So-called "copper" plugs don't have copper electrodes - they would melt. I think he said they use a nickel-steel alloy, but I might not be remembering right.
He agreed that there are some applications where you have to run what he called "standard" plugs but it's only because the fancy iridiums are not made in enough heat ranges for serious racing applications. Like someone else mentioned, the heat range refers to how quickly the plug dissipates heat into the cylinder head. "Hot" plugs dissipate heat slowly so the business end of the plug gets hotter; "cold" plugs dissipate heat faster and run cooler. If the electrodes run too hot they can melt or otherwise physically degrade; if they run too cool they will foul because combustion deposits will form and can't be "burned off".
He made it clear that "hot" and "cold" have NOTHING to do with performance. Hot plugs do not perform better (make more power) than cold plugs. He said that for the most part there is NO performance to be gained by changing from one type of plug to another. What you gain is reliability and the ability to maintain the engine in a proper state of tune because the plugs don't foul or degrade over time. Any time you change plugs and notice a performance increase either it was all in your head or the plugs were shot and any new plug would have given you the same performance increase.
I described my specific application and his recommendation was the BKR8EIX (2668) or BKR9EIX (2669) or R7433-10 (racing plug). The first 2 are Iridium plugs designed for FI applications (non S2000) but will fit the S2000. The 8EIX is one step colder than a stock plug, the 9EIX is 2 steps colder than stock. The racing plug is colder still and costs out the ying-yang because they are made in sufficiently low quantities that they must be hand-assembled. He warned me that none of these plugs have the special compression washers NGK developed for Honda to prevent the plugs from loosening and should be checked for tightness every few thousand miles. But he assured me that Iridium plugs were not "verbotten" on FI cars and that in fact they were developed specifically for FI because they can tolerate the higher heat of an FI combustion chamber.
I've been running the 9EIX's for 50k miles and have changed them twice, mostly for peace of mind rather than any specific need. They still ran fine and looked "good" when they came out.
The above Iridiums are available from most parts stores at reasonable prices but you'll probably have to order them (use the stock number in () when you place the order). I got my last set from an on-line store and they were shipped to my house for no extra charge.
Sorry about the rant, but it just amazes me that so many people will rely on rumors and second-hand information and never check with the experts, when sometimes (as with NGK) they were surprisingly responsive and willing to help.
EDIT - $7.60 ea from NGK, $6.38 ea from these guys
.
After having a Bosche plug fail in my FI S2000 (my own stupid fault and cost me $2k - proof that I'm not an expert!) I talked to NGK. Yes, actually spoke on the phone with somebody that makes spark plugs for a living and probably knows more than "dyno guy". I asked about the "you shouldn't run anything but copper plugs in an FI car" tale that is frequently spouted. His response - "hogwash". First, they're all "copper", even the platinums and iridums. The part that is copper is inside the plug. So-called "copper" plugs don't have copper electrodes - they would melt. I think he said they use a nickel-steel alloy, but I might not be remembering right.
He agreed that there are some applications where you have to run what he called "standard" plugs but it's only because the fancy iridiums are not made in enough heat ranges for serious racing applications. Like someone else mentioned, the heat range refers to how quickly the plug dissipates heat into the cylinder head. "Hot" plugs dissipate heat slowly so the business end of the plug gets hotter; "cold" plugs dissipate heat faster and run cooler. If the electrodes run too hot they can melt or otherwise physically degrade; if they run too cool they will foul because combustion deposits will form and can't be "burned off".
He made it clear that "hot" and "cold" have NOTHING to do with performance. Hot plugs do not perform better (make more power) than cold plugs. He said that for the most part there is NO performance to be gained by changing from one type of plug to another. What you gain is reliability and the ability to maintain the engine in a proper state of tune because the plugs don't foul or degrade over time. Any time you change plugs and notice a performance increase either it was all in your head or the plugs were shot and any new plug would have given you the same performance increase.
I described my specific application and his recommendation was the BKR8EIX (2668) or BKR9EIX (2669) or R7433-10 (racing plug). The first 2 are Iridium plugs designed for FI applications (non S2000) but will fit the S2000. The 8EIX is one step colder than a stock plug, the 9EIX is 2 steps colder than stock. The racing plug is colder still and costs out the ying-yang because they are made in sufficiently low quantities that they must be hand-assembled. He warned me that none of these plugs have the special compression washers NGK developed for Honda to prevent the plugs from loosening and should be checked for tightness every few thousand miles. But he assured me that Iridium plugs were not "verbotten" on FI cars and that in fact they were developed specifically for FI because they can tolerate the higher heat of an FI combustion chamber.
I've been running the 9EIX's for 50k miles and have changed them twice, mostly for peace of mind rather than any specific need. They still ran fine and looked "good" when they came out.
The above Iridiums are available from most parts stores at reasonable prices but you'll probably have to order them (use the stock number in () when you place the order). I got my last set from an on-line store and they were shipped to my house for no extra charge.
Sorry about the rant, but it just amazes me that so many people will rely on rumors and second-hand information and never check with the experts, when sometimes (as with NGK) they were surprisingly responsive and willing to help.
EDIT - $7.60 ea from NGK, $6.38 ea from these guys
.
10-06-2005, 11:15 AM
#46
I believe that you've talk to NGK, "the experts". and I'm sure that he is the only one who makes sparkplug for living.
*not*
I'm sure he makes few and other 20 people makes few as well. and I'm sure there bunch of locked up engineers design these as well. perhaps one you've talked to is a chief engineer. or could be a engineer designed platinum tip. or sales help desk personnel. point is, who knows and I don't care. I'm not saying you are wrong on your information. I'm saying way you represented your researched material is wrong.
we all research information by talking to other people, on the phone, experience, or over internet. some may be correct some may be wrong. I'll pass on information as I researched and present the source so people can make their own decision. but I would not go on and say your source is BS.
I also understand your frustration about people pretending to be "expert". we've seen few. but we don't know that until it's proven.
on the subject related to this topic,
BKR8EIX (2668) is one step, and BKR9EIX (2669) is two step colder than our stock. but for R7433-10, if the number is correct, it's 3 step colder, I believe. unless you are making over 500 hp, I'm not sure if you'll need it.
and last, from what I'm going through right now, I rather spend $10 every 5,000 mile to change my spark plug than leaving it there for 50,000 miles. just more peace of mind. at least for me.
*not*
I'm sure he makes few and other 20 people makes few as well. and I'm sure there bunch of locked up engineers design these as well. perhaps one you've talked to is a chief engineer. or could be a engineer designed platinum tip. or sales help desk personnel. point is, who knows and I don't care. I'm not saying you are wrong on your information. I'm saying way you represented your researched material is wrong.
we all research information by talking to other people, on the phone, experience, or over internet. some may be correct some may be wrong. I'll pass on information as I researched and present the source so people can make their own decision. but I would not go on and say your source is BS.
I also understand your frustration about people pretending to be "expert". we've seen few. but we don't know that until it's proven.
on the subject related to this topic,
BKR8EIX (2668) is one step, and BKR9EIX (2669) is two step colder than our stock. but for R7433-10, if the number is correct, it's 3 step colder, I believe. unless you are making over 500 hp, I'm not sure if you'll need it.
and last, from what I'm going through right now, I rather spend $10 every 5,000 mile to change my spark plug than leaving it there for 50,000 miles. just more peace of mind. at least for me.
10-06-2005, 02:47 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by modifry,Oct 6 2005, 10:02 AM
You guys are killing me. Which one of you is a spark plug engineer? The "dyno guy" at the track? I think not. Why don't you talk to a real expert and quit guessing as to what's going on? (that expert would not be me)
After having a Bosche plug fail in my FI S2000 (my own stupid fault and cost me $2k - proof that I'm not an expert!) I talked to NGK. Yes, actually spoke on the phone with somebody that makes spark plugs for a living and probably knows more than "dyno guy". I asked about the "you shouldn't run anything but copper plugs in an FI car" tale that is frequently spouted. His response - "hogwash". First, they're all "copper", even the platinums and iridums. The part that is copper is inside the plug. So-called "copper" plugs don't have copper electrodes - they would melt. I think he said they use a nickel-steel alloy, but I might not be remembering right.
He agreed that there are some applications where you have to run what he called "standard" plugs but it's only because the fancy iridiums are not made in enough heat ranges for serious racing applications. Like someone else mentioned, the heat range refers to how quickly the plug dissipates heat into the cylinder head. "Hot" plugs dissipate heat slowly so the business end of the plug gets hotter; "cold" plugs dissipate heat faster and run cooler. If the electrodes run too hot they can melt or otherwise physically degrade; if they run too cool they will foul because combustion deposits will form and can't be "burned off".
He made it clear that "hot" and "cold" have NOTHING to do with performance. Hot plugs do not perform better (make more power) than cold plugs. He said that for the most part there is NO performance to be gained by changing from one type of plug to another. What you gain is reliability and the ability to maintain the engine in a proper state of tune because the plugs don't foul or degrade over time. Any time you change plugs and notice a performance increase either it was all in your head or the plugs were shot and any new plug would have given you the same performance increase.
I described my specific application and his recommendation was the BKR8EIX (2668) or BKR9EIX (2669) or R7433-10 (racing plug). The first 2 are Iridium plugs designed for FI applications (non S2000) but will fit the S2000. The 8EIX is one step colder than a stock plug, the 9EIX is 2 steps colder than stock. The racing plug is colder still and costs out the ying-yang because they are made in sufficiently low quantities that they must be hand-assembled. He warned me that none of these plugs have the special compression washers NGK developed for Honda to prevent the plugs from loosening and should be checked for tightness every few thousand miles. But he assured me that Iridium plugs were not "verbotten" on FI cars and that in fact they were developed specifically for FI because they can tolerate the higher heat of an FI combustion chamber.
I've been running the 9EIX's for 50k miles and have changed them twice, mostly for peace of mind rather than any specific need. They still ran fine and looked "good" when they came out.
The above Iridiums are available from most parts stores at reasonable prices but you'll probably have to order them (use the stock number in () when you place the order). I got my last set from an on-line store and they were shipped to my house for no extra charge.
Sorry about the rant, but it just amazes me that so many people will rely on rumors and second-hand information and never check with the experts, when sometimes (as with NGK) they were surprisingly responsive and willing to help.
EDIT - $7.60 ea from NGK, $6.38 ea from these guys
.
After having a Bosche plug fail in my FI S2000 (my own stupid fault and cost me $2k - proof that I'm not an expert!) I talked to NGK. Yes, actually spoke on the phone with somebody that makes spark plugs for a living and probably knows more than "dyno guy". I asked about the "you shouldn't run anything but copper plugs in an FI car" tale that is frequently spouted. His response - "hogwash". First, they're all "copper", even the platinums and iridums. The part that is copper is inside the plug. So-called "copper" plugs don't have copper electrodes - they would melt. I think he said they use a nickel-steel alloy, but I might not be remembering right.
He agreed that there are some applications where you have to run what he called "standard" plugs but it's only because the fancy iridiums are not made in enough heat ranges for serious racing applications. Like someone else mentioned, the heat range refers to how quickly the plug dissipates heat into the cylinder head. "Hot" plugs dissipate heat slowly so the business end of the plug gets hotter; "cold" plugs dissipate heat faster and run cooler. If the electrodes run too hot they can melt or otherwise physically degrade; if they run too cool they will foul because combustion deposits will form and can't be "burned off".
He made it clear that "hot" and "cold" have NOTHING to do with performance. Hot plugs do not perform better (make more power) than cold plugs. He said that for the most part there is NO performance to be gained by changing from one type of plug to another. What you gain is reliability and the ability to maintain the engine in a proper state of tune because the plugs don't foul or degrade over time. Any time you change plugs and notice a performance increase either it was all in your head or the plugs were shot and any new plug would have given you the same performance increase.
I described my specific application and his recommendation was the BKR8EIX (2668) or BKR9EIX (2669) or R7433-10 (racing plug). The first 2 are Iridium plugs designed for FI applications (non S2000) but will fit the S2000. The 8EIX is one step colder than a stock plug, the 9EIX is 2 steps colder than stock. The racing plug is colder still and costs out the ying-yang because they are made in sufficiently low quantities that they must be hand-assembled. He warned me that none of these plugs have the special compression washers NGK developed for Honda to prevent the plugs from loosening and should be checked for tightness every few thousand miles. But he assured me that Iridium plugs were not "verbotten" on FI cars and that in fact they were developed specifically for FI because they can tolerate the higher heat of an FI combustion chamber.
I've been running the 9EIX's for 50k miles and have changed them twice, mostly for peace of mind rather than any specific need. They still ran fine and looked "good" when they came out.
The above Iridiums are available from most parts stores at reasonable prices but you'll probably have to order them (use the stock number in () when you place the order). I got my last set from an on-line store and they were shipped to my house for no extra charge.
Sorry about the rant, but it just amazes me that so many people will rely on rumors and second-hand information and never check with the experts, when sometimes (as with NGK) they were surprisingly responsive and willing to help.
EDIT - $7.60 ea from NGK, $6.38 ea from these guys
.
too bad i just bought 16 NGK 7173s.
i'll run thru these and make the switch later of it gets too tiresome, just hit up one of your recommendations.i knew there was a good possibilty of longer-lasting alternatives!
10-06-2005, 04:05 PM
#49
My 8,000 RPM problem is cured!!! see other post in FI section. I've used IK24 for about 10,000 miles and it started to develop. I didn't know it was sparkplug, after 10,000 more miles, after seeing this post, listening to "dyno guy" and other member in this forum, I decided to change it since it was about time. 7173 did the magic. and I'm back in business. good thing is, it did not any harm to engine. it went through track with that condition.
good thing is, it did not any harm to engine. it went through track with that condition.
10-14-2005, 05:13 PM
#50
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I never tried the IK24's, not a big fan of Denso. Being an Ex rx-7 owner, I felt at home with NGK heat ranges, so I tried the NGK BKR8EIX (2668). I can firmly report that they're not much better than the IK24's based on the problems described in this thread. I did not have ceramic seperate or pieces fall out, but I did get the 8000 rpm stumble, it increased to almost cover the entire v-tech range of the powerband with time and it also produced that ticking sound someone described in this thread.
I switched them out to NGK 7173 and the ticking is gone and the stumble is gone. I am pretty sure the 7173 will end up being a bit hot and I will need to use 7405 (heat range 9) as this car has so far shown an uncanny behavior patterns to the rx-7. The rx-7 loved NGK 9's, came with 7's from the factory for the leading plugs and 9's for trailing. However the 7's were primarily specified for emissions and I wouldn't be surprised if the 7's in the S2000 were specified partially because of emissions. The rx-7 revs almost as high as the S2000 and with the same eagerness too, hence what worked to control pre-ignition with the rx-7 might apply here.
I believe the photos shown in the first post of this thread are caused by pre-ignition, which means with sustained high rpm operation the IK24's and in the NGK 8's are too hot still. I believe the S2000 in NA setup will run great with 1 step colder plugs and in FI needs 2 steps at least upto 9-10psi. Those running 9 psi or more will need to run 10's from NGK, which is also what we ran on the rx-7 when we exceeded the factory boost by 5 psi.
cheers
W
I switched them out to NGK 7173 and the ticking is gone and the stumble is gone. I am pretty sure the 7173 will end up being a bit hot and I will need to use 7405 (heat range 9) as this car has so far shown an uncanny behavior patterns to the rx-7. The rx-7 loved NGK 9's, came with 7's from the factory for the leading plugs and 9's for trailing. However the 7's were primarily specified for emissions and I wouldn't be surprised if the 7's in the S2000 were specified partially because of emissions. The rx-7 revs almost as high as the S2000 and with the same eagerness too, hence what worked to control pre-ignition with the rx-7 might apply here.
I believe the photos shown in the first post of this thread are caused by pre-ignition, which means with sustained high rpm operation the IK24's and in the NGK 8's are too hot still. I believe the S2000 in NA setup will run great with 1 step colder plugs and in FI needs 2 steps at least upto 9-10psi. Those running 9 psi or more will need to run 10's from NGK, which is also what we ran on the rx-7 when we exceeded the factory boost by 5 psi.
cheers
W