Full valve job advice due to mechanical over rev *** Actually it was tight valve clearances ***
10-12-2011, 06:57 PM
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Full valve job advice due to mechanical over rev *** Actually it was tight valve clearances ***
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Hey guys. I'm looking at doing a full valve job myself and would appreciate any advice from the community.
It's been a long time coming so I'll give you a little history. I've got a 2004 S2000 with the F22C. I've had it since new. It's got around 70k on it now. I'm pretty sure I've hit the money shift at least once (if not more) in the past. A couple of years ago I started getting all the misfire codes. I originally thought it was the MAP sensor issue. I did the MAP whack, cleaned the passages (which helped the idle), added the zip tie, even installed a new MAP sensor with the zip tie all to no avail. After that I started reading all the pages about mechanical over revs from a missed shift and the related cracked retainers, bent valves, etc.
Last year in an attempt to pass inspection I finally did a compression test. Cylinders 1, 2, and 4 were all around 240 psi. Cylinder 3, however, was only at 190 psi. It was also full of black deposits. I performed a valve adjustment at that time. Unfortunately I did not write down all the measurements. I do remember that just about everything was tight. Some were at no clearance. I tried looking to see if any of the retainers were cracked but did not understand as much at the time what to look for exactly. (I know most the cracked retainers have been on the F20's but I'm still suspect of it since everything was so tight.) After that all the codes cleared and have not returned. The car has ran much better as well. Since I'm still concerned about dropping a valve I haven't gone over 4k rpm in the last couple of years (which has sucked by the way).
So now I've decided to fix it for sure. First I'm planning on doing a leak down test just in case that tells me anything new. I figure if I'm going to pull it apart I might as well go ahead and replace everything. I'm planning on pulling the head and installing new valves (intake and exhaust), guides, seals, keepers, springs, retainers, and seats. I've read that it's hard to beat OEM for the valves. Any reason to go oversize? I've read that you can actually lose airflow in the VTEC engines with oversized valves. I was thinking of going with Supertech guides.
As far as springs I haven't decided. I definitely do want to go aftermarket. There's Supertech, Ferrea, Skunk2, Spoon, Brian Crower, ScienceofSpeed, InlinePro, and more I'm sure. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. What about dual springs? What about titanium retainers?
What about gaskets? I assume I'll need a cylinder head gasket, an intake gasket, and an exhaust gasket. I read that Honda has a full kit but I haven't seen it anywhere. What about the Hondata heatshield gasket?
My other big question is about what to do with the head itself. I guess I need to send it out to a shop to check if it's warped and needs resurfacing. I've read that a basic three-angle valve job is the best bet. Any thoughts? I've also read that porting and polishing an S2000 head doesn't get you much. Should I send the whole thing off and get them to remove and install everything? Does anyone know any good shops in the Dallas area? I've found these shops online but don't know much about them: City Motor Supply in Dallas, ENDYN in Fort Worth, Ballade Sports in Garden Grove, Speed-O-Motive in West Covina, HP Engines in Norwood, Performance Porting in Loveland, Port Flow Design in Harbor City, and CC Cylinder Heads.
Should I get new head bolts? I know the service manual gives bolt diameters to check for stretch. I think the ARP kit is $150. Necessary?
I found a couple of good write ups that may be useful to others as well. One from modified and the other from Honda Tuning.
http://www.modified.com/projectcars/...000/index.html
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t...ild/index.html
I'd appreciate any help you guys can offer. I know this is a lot of info and a lot of questions but I've been mulling this over for a while. I know there's lots of posts on this topic (because I've read all I can find) but I haven't seen any that discuss everything done to fix it. I've got the service manual and would rather buy any tools needed over paying someone else to do it. I just want to know what I need before hand. I'd like to have all parts ready to go before I rip it apart. Thanks again.
Hey guys. I'm looking at doing a full valve job myself and would appreciate any advice from the community.
It's been a long time coming so I'll give you a little history. I've got a 2004 S2000 with the F22C. I've had it since new. It's got around 70k on it now. I'm pretty sure I've hit the money shift at least once (if not more) in the past. A couple of years ago I started getting all the misfire codes. I originally thought it was the MAP sensor issue. I did the MAP whack, cleaned the passages (which helped the idle), added the zip tie, even installed a new MAP sensor with the zip tie all to no avail. After that I started reading all the pages about mechanical over revs from a missed shift and the related cracked retainers, bent valves, etc.
Last year in an attempt to pass inspection I finally did a compression test. Cylinders 1, 2, and 4 were all around 240 psi. Cylinder 3, however, was only at 190 psi. It was also full of black deposits. I performed a valve adjustment at that time. Unfortunately I did not write down all the measurements. I do remember that just about everything was tight. Some were at no clearance. I tried looking to see if any of the retainers were cracked but did not understand as much at the time what to look for exactly. (I know most the cracked retainers have been on the F20's but I'm still suspect of it since everything was so tight.) After that all the codes cleared and have not returned. The car has ran much better as well. Since I'm still concerned about dropping a valve I haven't gone over 4k rpm in the last couple of years (which has sucked by the way).
So now I've decided to fix it for sure. First I'm planning on doing a leak down test just in case that tells me anything new. I figure if I'm going to pull it apart I might as well go ahead and replace everything. I'm planning on pulling the head and installing new valves (intake and exhaust), guides, seals, keepers, springs, retainers, and seats. I've read that it's hard to beat OEM for the valves. Any reason to go oversize? I've read that you can actually lose airflow in the VTEC engines with oversized valves. I was thinking of going with Supertech guides.
As far as springs I haven't decided. I definitely do want to go aftermarket. There's Supertech, Ferrea, Skunk2, Spoon, Brian Crower, ScienceofSpeed, InlinePro, and more I'm sure. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. What about dual springs? What about titanium retainers?
What about gaskets? I assume I'll need a cylinder head gasket, an intake gasket, and an exhaust gasket. I read that Honda has a full kit but I haven't seen it anywhere. What about the Hondata heatshield gasket?
My other big question is about what to do with the head itself. I guess I need to send it out to a shop to check if it's warped and needs resurfacing. I've read that a basic three-angle valve job is the best bet. Any thoughts? I've also read that porting and polishing an S2000 head doesn't get you much. Should I send the whole thing off and get them to remove and install everything? Does anyone know any good shops in the Dallas area? I've found these shops online but don't know much about them: City Motor Supply in Dallas, ENDYN in Fort Worth, Ballade Sports in Garden Grove, Speed-O-Motive in West Covina, HP Engines in Norwood, Performance Porting in Loveland, Port Flow Design in Harbor City, and CC Cylinder Heads.
Should I get new head bolts? I know the service manual gives bolt diameters to check for stretch. I think the ARP kit is $150. Necessary?
I found a couple of good write ups that may be useful to others as well. One from modified and the other from Honda Tuning.
http://www.modified.com/projectcars/...000/index.html
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t...ild/index.html
I'd appreciate any help you guys can offer. I know this is a lot of info and a lot of questions but I've been mulling this over for a while. I know there's lots of posts on this topic (because I've read all I can find) but I haven't seen any that discuss everything done to fix it. I've got the service manual and would rather buy any tools needed over paying someone else to do it. I just want to know what I need before hand. I'd like to have all parts ready to go before I rip it apart. Thanks again.
10-14-2011, 04:22 AM
#2
Do a leakdown test. If it comes up < 5% just drive the car and use the full rpm.
If you want to overhaul it. Check your current valves for straightness and get them crack tested. If they come up fine just get them refaced. If you want spend the $$$ get new honda ones or supertech ones.
Fit new guides, supertech ones are OK thought a little shorter than factory ones. Have the head shop fit the guides, ream/hone guides to suit the valves, Cut seats as per factory angles just enough to clean up the seats. ( no need to replace seats). Get them to resurface the head to a very fine finish.
Fit new AP2 retainers/keepers. Factory springs are fine though fit new honda or aftermarket ones if you want to spend the money. New stem seals.
Use a factory gasket/seal kit and standard head bolts.
If you want to overhaul it. Check your current valves for straightness and get them crack tested. If they come up fine just get them refaced. If you want spend the $$$ get new honda ones or supertech ones.
Fit new guides, supertech ones are OK thought a little shorter than factory ones. Have the head shop fit the guides, ream/hone guides to suit the valves, Cut seats as per factory angles just enough to clean up the seats. ( no need to replace seats). Get them to resurface the head to a very fine finish.
Fit new AP2 retainers/keepers. Factory springs are fine though fit new honda or aftermarket ones if you want to spend the money. New stem seals.
Use a factory gasket/seal kit and standard head bolts.
10-14-2011, 05:32 AM
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chris_barry, thanks for the info. I'll do the leakdown test and let you know how it comes out. I haven't made a payment on the car in a few years so I don't mind putting a little money into it. I'd rather spend a grand now on rebuilding the head as opposed to five grand on a new motor down the road. But, like you said, that may not even be necessary.
I've read that OEM guides are too soft. Do you buy this?
I was thinking of going to dual springs to better resist valve float. What are your thoughts on this? What is the down side to increased spring pressures?
I've read that OEM guides are too soft. Do you buy this?
I was thinking of going to dual springs to better resist valve float. What are your thoughts on this? What is the down side to increased spring pressures?
10-18-2011, 12:40 PM
#5
just had my head done by a local shop that im sure you could send yours to. there name is DLK its in russellton PA. number is 724-265-1020 ask for Jeff, Tell him Alex told you about them with the S2000. they Decked, all new guides, all new exhuast valves, and one intake valve. For $728. not bad, worth every penny cars running great now!
10-18-2011, 12:41 PM
#6
just had a rebuild done and the performance shop used Ferrea Stainless valves. OEM headgasket OEM exhaust gasket and AP2 retainers, none of the valve guides where changed.. They did use an aftermarket intake gasket to minimize heat transfer to the intake but do not remember the brand.. LHT Performance did the work, they are in Pinellas Park 727-344-1880.. over revving probably bent some valves.. I had several exhaust valves bent due to an over rev
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12-11-2011, 05:31 AM
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I rechecked compression and did a leak down test yesterday. Compression came out the same as before and the leak down showed expected results.
Cylinder...........Compression (psi).........Leak Down (%)
....1.....................240..................... 10
....2.....................240..................... 20
....3.....................190..................... 45
....4.....................240..................... 5
The leak down in 3 sounded to be both in the intake and exhaust.
I've purchased all Supertech components for the rebuild (valves, guides, seals, springs, spring seats, retainers, keepers). I'm taking the head into Watt's Engine Shop next week. I can't wait to get this baby back to how she should be. I've got the Honda gasket kit, crush washers, fluids, spark plugs, K&N air filter, everything I could imagine I'll need to get back up and running. I'll let you know how it goes. I'll take plenty of pics.
Cylinder...........Compression (psi).........Leak Down (%)
....1.....................240..................... 10
....2.....................240..................... 20
....3.....................190..................... 45
....4.....................240..................... 5
The leak down in 3 sounded to be both in the intake and exhaust.
I've purchased all Supertech components for the rebuild (valves, guides, seals, springs, spring seats, retainers, keepers). I'm taking the head into Watt's Engine Shop next week. I can't wait to get this baby back to how she should be. I've got the Honda gasket kit, crush washers, fluids, spark plugs, K&N air filter, everything I could imagine I'll need to get back up and running. I'll let you know how it goes. I'll take plenty of pics.