F22C1 at 9000rpm?
02-21-2005, 06:35 PM
#1
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F22C1 at 9000rpm?
Okay, from the conversations about the JDM crate engines, UL race engines, and Alaniz built engines, I'm having a difficult time determining if anybody has successfully run an OEM F22C1 to 9000rpm. (Repeatably and without exploding, of course! 
)
From an ECU perspective, I can think of two ways to go. 1) AEM EMS and custom tuning. 2) '00-'03 ECU and proper fuel tuning.
But what about the mechanicals? Would an F22C1 spinning that fast spit a conrod out the block? Bend valves against pistons? Score a cylinder wall with a piston? Or would it work without issue?
Anybody with experience, please chime in.
)From an ECU perspective, I can think of two ways to go. 1) AEM EMS and custom tuning. 2) '00-'03 ECU and proper fuel tuning.
But what about the mechanicals? Would an F22C1 spinning that fast spit a conrod out the block? Bend valves against pistons? Score a cylinder wall with a piston? Or would it work without issue?
Anybody with experience, please chime in.
02-21-2005, 06:37 PM
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yeah you could rev it to 9k but do you really wanna ruin your motor that fast? if were talking about a stock bottom end you should only be reving to 83k. this is based on discussions i jus had w/ ul as im in the process of trying to locate a new 2.2l to have him build w/ joe.
02-21-2005, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CynCrvrAP1' date='Feb 21 2005, 09:37 PM
yeah you could rev it to 9k but do you really wanna ruin your motor that fast?
And if it's a no-go, what would it take to make it work reliably?
02-21-2005, 06:54 PM
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Elistan,
You might be able to run the F22 to 9000 rpm without blowing it up, but if you do it enough (drive it like its an F20C essentially), you will break a rod. Running an F22 to 9000 rpm is roughly equivalent to running an F20C above 10000 rpm (piston speed is equivalent to about 9700 rpm on the F20, but loading is dependent more on piston _acceleration_).
I've talked to a number of Honda engine builders with racing experience (including several who've built race winning World Challenge engines) and they all feel that 8400-8500 rpm in a street car would be the max repeatable safe limit for the F22C, and in racing use where you're spending lots of time near the limiter, it should be more like 8200-8300 rpm.
In order to make it rev, you really only need to do one thing - change the rods/rod bolts. With good rods 9000 rpm would not be a problem, as Honda engines of this stroke length (H22 engines) have reliably revved to 9k+ with aftermarket parts.
SC
You might be able to run the F22 to 9000 rpm without blowing it up, but if you do it enough (drive it like its an F20C essentially), you will break a rod. Running an F22 to 9000 rpm is roughly equivalent to running an F20C above 10000 rpm (piston speed is equivalent to about 9700 rpm on the F20, but loading is dependent more on piston _acceleration_).
I've talked to a number of Honda engine builders with racing experience (including several who've built race winning World Challenge engines) and they all feel that 8400-8500 rpm in a street car would be the max repeatable safe limit for the F22C, and in racing use where you're spending lots of time near the limiter, it should be more like 8200-8300 rpm.
In order to make it rev, you really only need to do one thing - change the rods/rod bolts. With good rods 9000 rpm would not be a problem, as Honda engines of this stroke length (H22 engines) have reliably revved to 9k+ with aftermarket parts.
SC
02-21-2005, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ultimate lurker' date='Feb 21 2005, 07:54 PM
Elistan,
You might be able to run the F22 to 9000 rpm without blowing it up, but if you do it enough (drive it like its an F20C essentially), you will break a rod. Running an F22 to 9000 rpm is roughly equivalent to running an F20C above 10000 rpm (piston speed is equivalent to about 9700 rpm on the F20, but loading is dependent more on piston _acceleration_).
I've talked to a number of Honda engine builders with racing experience (including several who've built race winning World Challenge engines) and they all feel that 8400-8500 rpm in a street car would be the max repeatable safe limit for the F22C, and in racing use where you're spending lots of time near the limiter, it should be more like 8200-8300 rpm.
In order to make it rev, you really only need to do one thing - change the rods/rod bolts. With good rods 9000 rpm would not be a problem, as Honda engines of this stroke length (H22 engines) have reliably revved to 9k+ with aftermarket parts.
SC
You might be able to run the F22 to 9000 rpm without blowing it up, but if you do it enough (drive it like its an F20C essentially), you will break a rod. Running an F22 to 9000 rpm is roughly equivalent to running an F20C above 10000 rpm (piston speed is equivalent to about 9700 rpm on the F20, but loading is dependent more on piston _acceleration_).
I've talked to a number of Honda engine builders with racing experience (including several who've built race winning World Challenge engines) and they all feel that 8400-8500 rpm in a street car would be the max repeatable safe limit for the F22C, and in racing use where you're spending lots of time near the limiter, it should be more like 8200-8300 rpm.
In order to make it rev, you really only need to do one thing - change the rods/rod bolts. With good rods 9000 rpm would not be a problem, as Honda engines of this stroke length (H22 engines) have reliably revved to 9k+ with aftermarket parts.
SC
02-21-2005, 10:19 PM
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I'll be honest, I haven't had much time to do or follow any of the mathematics involved, but come on, that's merely board speculation. The motor has tolerance, the question is how high is not safe. Anyway, I was always under the impression that the f20 hit it's rev limiter at 8900, not 9k, and the f22 at 8200, not 8k. Point being.. why not compromise? 8500? 8400? You don't even have to ring it out all the time, and I'd assume that when you do.. it's going to be an upshift on a straight, not holding it at the upgraded limit. After running k-series motors 900 and 600 rpms over the stock limiter safely, I have no doubt in my mind that the f22 could handle an extra couple hundred. But we're talking the difference of 700 rpms between these two motors. Everyone always makes it sound like the f22 was dropped to 6800 rpm.
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02-22-2005, 07:02 AM
#8
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Sigh.
Changing out conrods just isn't worth it to me, so looks like I'll be sticking with 8200rpm for a while.
rmc22, when driving an F22C1 and F20C back-to-back, it's rather amazing how much of a difference that 700rpm makes. (Although I think the situation is exacerbated by the shorter gearing as well.)
Changing out conrods just isn't worth it to me, so looks like I'll be sticking with 8200rpm for a while.
rmc22, when driving an F22C1 and F20C back-to-back, it's rather amazing how much of a difference that 700rpm makes. (Although I think the situation is exacerbated by the shorter gearing as well.)
02-22-2005, 07:48 AM
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02-22-2005, 09:53 AM
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Hehe, yes. I even posted on it two days ago. But somehow I missed that billman250 has done what I'm asking about - running an F22C1 with an F20C ECU. (Lots of bickering/speculation about why billman250 is doing this, what he should be doing differently, what is the main limiting factor for engine speed, etc. etc.)
No update on that beyond "Car is running well stay tuned fellas."
s2ksks has an AEM EMS equipped F22C1 running at 8500 rpm as well.
One report of Honda testing the F20C to 15,000 without issue?
The question is - will it run well long-term?
CrazyPhuD says a friend has been tracking a car like what I'm interested in for 9 months without issue. That's the best datapoint yet, IMO, assuming it's legit.
No update on that beyond "Car is running well stay tuned fellas."
s2ksks has an AEM EMS equipped F22C1 running at 8500 rpm as well.
One report of Honda testing the F20C to 15,000 without issue?
The question is - will it run well long-term?
CrazyPhuD says a friend has been tracking a car like what I'm interested in for 9 months without issue. That's the best datapoint yet, IMO, assuming it's legit.