Even more broken retainers found
11-09-2006, 02:01 PM
#51
Registered User
Originally Posted by krazik,Nov 9 2006, 02:00 PM
I'm not billman but this is what he has and what I have too. You have to grind the metal ears off one side to make it fit better.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P6...ore&dir=catalog
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P6...ore&dir=catalog
Also, which metal "ears" did you have to grind down?
11-09-2006, 02:08 PM
#52
Administrator
Originally Posted by ideugene,Nov 9 2006, 02:58 PM
I meant the spring compressor. 
Sorry.
Sorry.
11-09-2006, 02:11 PM
#54
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How much force do the valves "handle" being held up by air pressure alone?
Do you have to be very very carefull not pressing them down?
What tool did you use to stop the piston from moving away from TDC?
Or do you pressurise the valves with the piston at its lowest?
Lots of questions.. I know
Do you have to be very very carefull not pressing them down?
What tool did you use to stop the piston from moving away from TDC?
Or do you pressurise the valves with the piston at its lowest?
Lots of questions.. I know
11-09-2006, 05:40 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by Tachamp,Nov 9 2006, 06:43 PM
Mx-5,
I purchased the car used from a honda dealership. It was a "certified vehicle". It had one previous owner.The car had 29k on it. When I got the car it already had 4 new tires which i assumed was normal b/c the stock tires were"Sports" compound and with almost 30k i figured it was ok for tires to be changed. The rears were pretty badly worn though. When I bought the car to Bill yes it was the first "keeper inspection". In response to your third question..."Can you eleminate the possibility of an over rev by a previous owner?" I don't understand what you are exactly asking. I don't think I could eliminate the possibility of an over-rev by the previous owner because they owned the car before and however they drove it is however they drove it. I wouldnt say I beat the crap out my car but I utilize the high cam profiles every day. I autocross, play around a little on the streets and do some beginner level drifting and in the future would like to get some actual track time in. I will indeed keep you guys posted with what goes on. I'm very lucky that I had been able to bring the car to Bill when I did because those retainers didn't have much more life in them. And the way I use the car it was only a matter of time before things went ka-boom.
I purchased the car used from a honda dealership. It was a "certified vehicle". It had one previous owner.The car had 29k on it. When I got the car it already had 4 new tires which i assumed was normal b/c the stock tires were"Sports" compound and with almost 30k i figured it was ok for tires to be changed. The rears were pretty badly worn though. When I bought the car to Bill yes it was the first "keeper inspection". In response to your third question..."Can you eleminate the possibility of an over rev by a previous owner?" I don't understand what you are exactly asking. I don't think I could eliminate the possibility of an over-rev by the previous owner because they owned the car before and however they drove it is however they drove it. I wouldnt say I beat the crap out my car but I utilize the high cam profiles every day. I autocross, play around a little on the streets and do some beginner level drifting and in the future would like to get some actual track time in. I will indeed keep you guys posted with what goes on. I'm very lucky that I had been able to bring the car to Bill when I did because those retainers didn't have much more life in them. And the way I use the car it was only a matter of time before things went ka-boom.
I was hoping you might have known the previous owner.The problem with figuring out whether this is something that just happens, or if it is always related to an over rev, it not getting any easier with so many of us buying the cars used, and because I too drive the car hard, this is the kind of thing that I'd really like to know. Granted, it only takes a few minutes to check the retainers, but I'd like to figure out if a "periodic check" is something we should advise everyone to do. I don't want to advise people to do preventive maintainence when it's not really required. Know what I mean?
Bill, if you're still following this, what do you think? Do we need to start thinking about a periodic keeper inspection as a normal part of preventitive maintainence, or is it just something we need to worry about when we buy a used car or have a mechanical over-rev? (I'll keep inspecting my own retainers anyway, but what about the guys who have to pay for such things. Is it worth it?)
11-09-2006, 06:16 PM
#58
Moderator
Thread Starter
I am hoping to crack mine soon 
I drive my car wide open alot, and I pull the v-cover every 20k just to look around. I've got some track time and some autoX on there, so maybe I'll find something. I know I have not over-reved, but I've been to rev limiter many times.
Keep in mind checking them can be very easy. It can literally take 15 minutes. I've also found I don't even really need a mirror to see them either. A bright light is all you need. Get your eyes right over the engine, close down. IMO they are very easy to spot when broken.
Using the AP2 retainers was a very calculated upgrade. There are, sort of, two phases of damage from an over-rev. At a certain RPM (some may be able to comment on exactly what it is) the intake valves will float enough to cause a jackhammer effect on the retainers and crack them. This is what I've been finding.
Now the next stage ( a higher RPM) the exhaust valves will hit the pistons, and bend or break them.
I'm confident the AP2 retainer will close, or eliminate, the margin between the two.
In other words, they will raise the over-rev limit on cracking the retainers, but not bending the exhaust valves.
ONLY for argument sake, we'll say the retainers break at 9600. We'll say the exhaust valves bend at 10,300. I'm confident the new retainers will bring the breaking limit over 10k, or even higher. Basically, the safe RPM window will be raised and save the engine.
I have meticulously measured all aspects of the retainers, to be sure they are compatible with the valve stem, and the spring height is preserved.
The weight is not an issue to me. The difference is too small to matter. On paper, some will argue the weight is a factor. In the real world, the weight does not matter. If it costs 1hp, so be it. Keeping the engine healthy and together is what really matters.
Keep in mind to switch to AP2 retainers, you must use the AP2 keepers (Honda calls them cotters) as well.
I drive my car wide open alot, and I pull the v-cover every 20k just to look around. I've got some track time and some autoX on there, so maybe I'll find something. I know I have not over-reved, but I've been to rev limiter many times.Keep in mind checking them can be very easy. It can literally take 15 minutes. I've also found I don't even really need a mirror to see them either. A bright light is all you need. Get your eyes right over the engine, close down. IMO they are very easy to spot when broken.
Using the AP2 retainers was a very calculated upgrade. There are, sort of, two phases of damage from an over-rev. At a certain RPM (some may be able to comment on exactly what it is) the intake valves will float enough to cause a jackhammer effect on the retainers and crack them. This is what I've been finding.
Now the next stage ( a higher RPM) the exhaust valves will hit the pistons, and bend or break them.
I'm confident the AP2 retainer will close, or eliminate, the margin between the two.
In other words, they will raise the over-rev limit on cracking the retainers, but not bending the exhaust valves.
ONLY for argument sake, we'll say the retainers break at 9600. We'll say the exhaust valves bend at 10,300. I'm confident the new retainers will bring the breaking limit over 10k, or even higher. Basically, the safe RPM window will be raised and save the engine.
I have meticulously measured all aspects of the retainers, to be sure they are compatible with the valve stem, and the spring height is preserved.
The weight is not an issue to me. The difference is too small to matter. On paper, some will argue the weight is a factor. In the real world, the weight does not matter. If it costs 1hp, so be it. Keeping the engine healthy and together is what really matters.
Keep in mind to switch to AP2 retainers, you must use the AP2 keepers (Honda calls them cotters) as well.
11-09-2006, 06:27 PM
#59
Moderator
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Nov 9 2006, 08:01 AM
I do know, that the procedure (replacing the retainers & keepers that is) as stated in the service manual requires to pull the head.
Most likely a dealer will follow that manual too.
Most likely a dealer will follow that manual too.