diff moan/groan......
11-03-2006, 03:07 PM
#21
Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Nov 3 2006, 04:20 AM
More likely this happened:
There (most likely) was a lot of rotational speed difference between the wheels.
The Torsen was locking the axles together and the friction plates, inside the Torsen housing, covered in oil, were working hard to make that happen and were making a "grinding" noise IMO.
When was the last time you changed the diff oil.. and what oil is in there now?
There (most likely) was a lot of rotational speed difference between the wheels.
The Torsen was locking the axles together and the friction plates, inside the Torsen housing, covered in oil, were working hard to make that happen and were making a "grinding" noise IMO.
When was the last time you changed the diff oil.. and what oil is in there now?
The Torsen unit when locking and unlocking makes some noises and you should for the most part just ignore them. If it howls or whines then it needs to be looked at. If it is just banging on a slow tight turn ignore it. It will probably happen more when colder and the season is changing now. Changing the oil will have no impact on the noises in most cases.
Be glad that Honda didn't put a Detroit Locker differential in there. Bang, Bang, Bang.
Just like someone with a sledge hammer is walking along side and occasionally letting loose with a full swing hammer shot at the fender. 
11-03-2006, 03:18 PM
#22
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The side gears, part #2 and #4, are connected to the output shafts/CV's/wheels.
When they rotate at different revs, part #8, the planet gears, start to rotate too.
Because of the special shape (but all spiral cut gears do) they generate an axial force, pushing the side gears apart or together, depending on which side gear rotates faster.
Pushed apart they are locked because of the friction plates #1 and #5 are pushed against the Torsen housing part #6 and #9, that should be seen as 1 part.
Pushed together they are locked because of friction plates part #3.
The more rotational difference there is between the 2 side gears, the more axial force the planet gears generate and the more locking force you have.
Locked, the side gears rotate at the same speed, so the locking force gets back to zero.
The diff is constantly locking and not locking, allthough under normal straight driving conditions the rotational speed difference is not that much.
IOW, yes, "our" Torsen T-2 also has friction plates (disks).
I have experienced first hand, that my (old, and I'm not really sure what kind of oil it was) diff oil made the Torsen act strangely.
On tight corners it was generating too much lock with a little throttle, trying to make the inner wheel rotate as fast as the outer wheel, and that makes the car behave very unstable in those tight corners.
The proper, Honda recommended diff oil, being SAE 90 GL-5 hypoid gear oil
, solved it immedaitely and made the car behave as it did before.
11-03-2006, 03:42 PM
#23
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About those "friction plates"
In this article:
http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf
page 77, at the top right, they mention them as "trust washers".
Here is a quote:
That makes me think they are not "plain smooth hardened steel" washers.
Most likely not "friction disks" as a clutch disks or brake pads, but the surface of those washers has something to do with how the Torsen works IMO.
In this article:
http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf
page 77, at the top right, they mention them as "trust washers".
Here is a quote:
Completing the hardware complement are thurst washers used between each end of each side gear, between side gears and the housing. Selection of thrust washers is important in determining the operating characteristics for each application
Most likely not "friction disks" as a clutch disks or brake pads, but the surface of those washers has something to do with how the Torsen works IMO.
11-03-2006, 03:56 PM
#24
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Yea its a normal sound. I had the same Issue on my 2005 RX8. I had the car for 17,000 miles and always had the sound. It is the LSD. Nothing to worry about. I do have the same noise in my 06 S2K aswell.
11-04-2006, 01:07 AM
#26
Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Nov 3 2006, 04:18 PM
The side gears, part #2 and #4, are connected to the output shafts/CV's/wheels.
When they rotate at different revs, part #8, the planet gears, start to rotate too.
Because of the special shape (but all spiral cut gears do) they generate an axial force, pushing the side gears apart or together, depending on which side gear rotates faster.
Pushed apart they are locked because of the friction plates #1 and #5 are pushed against the Torsen housing part #6 and #9, that should be seen as 1 part.
Pushed together they are locked because of friction plates part #3.
The more rotational difference there is between the 2 side gears, the more axial force the planet gears generate and the more locking force you have.
Locked, the side gears rotate at the same speed, so the locking force gets back to zero.
The diff is constantly locking and not locking, allthough under normal straight driving conditions the rotational speed difference is not that much.
IOW, yes, "our" Torsen T-2 also has friction plates (disks).
I have experienced first hand, that my (old, and I'm not really sure what kind of oil it was) diff oil made the Torsen act strangely.
On tight corners it was generating too much lock with a little throttle, trying to make the inner wheel rotate as fast as the outer wheel, and that makes the car behave very unstable in those tight corners.
The proper, Honda recommended diff oil, being SAE 90 GL-5 hypoid gear oil
, solved it immedaitely and made the car behave as it did before.If you refer to the Torsen as a clutch type differential the rest of the automotive community won't have a clue what you are talking about.
11-04-2006, 01:45 AM
#27
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Sideways Posted on Nov 4 2006, 11:07 AM
Yes, I think I mentioned that in a later post.
They are not made of clutch type material, but I can't find any specs of what they are made of.
I have not seen them myself and could not get a good look on them when I had my Torsen on a workbench.
When you apply torque to the Torsen and 1 wheel starts to slip = less able to tranfer torque to the road, the planet gears generate an axial force on themselfs and the side gears.
The trust washers in between the side gears and in between the housing and the side gears play a role, not as true friction disks (as a clutch) but also not as bearings (with no friction).
Somewhere in between I guess.
The "Equvex" gear desing also generates friction and acts like a torque transfer mechanism.
The beauty of the Torsen is, that if you feed little torque to the unit it acts like an open diff.
A true cluch type diff is always somewhat locked, that IMO makes the clutch disks always in forced contact (spring loaded?) with eachother and that requires the special oil.
With one wheel in the air, true clutch type diffs have a big advantage.
Torsen developed the T-2R with some pre-loaded "trust washers" to still be able to transfer torque with one wheel up in the air.
Those thrushwashers are used differently from a clutch pack type differential.
They are not made of clutch type material, but I can't find any specs of what they are made of.
I have not seen them myself and could not get a good look on them when I had my Torsen on a workbench.
What makes the Torsen unit work is gear displaclement with subsequent lock up.
When you apply torque to the Torsen and 1 wheel starts to slip = less able to tranfer torque to the road, the planet gears generate an axial force on themselfs and the side gears.
The trust washers in between the side gears and in between the housing and the side gears play a role, not as true friction disks (as a clutch) but also not as bearings (with no friction).
Somewhere in between I guess.
The "Equvex" gear desing also generates friction and acts like a torque transfer mechanism.
The beauty of the Torsen is, that if you feed little torque to the unit it acts like an open diff.
A true cluch type diff is always somewhat locked, that IMO makes the clutch disks always in forced contact (spring loaded?) with eachother and that requires the special oil.
With one wheel in the air, true clutch type diffs have a big advantage.
Torsen developed the T-2R with some pre-loaded "trust washers" to still be able to transfer torque with one wheel up in the air.
11-06-2006, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Nov 6 2006, 10:36 AM
IMO that is only possible with a fully (mechanicaly) locked diff, as they use in 4X4 cars.
There are also more simple systems that can do this. The Lexus RX for example has three open diffs. If wheelspin is detected by the ESP/ABS sensors, the brake of that wheel is applied so that the wheel rotates at the speed it should be. Excess torque is send through the other, non-spinning, wheel.
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